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<DIV>Assuredly, it's not a direct trade-off; Stochiometric is different for the
different fuels, of course. And the fact remains that running pure
methanol will provide approximately 15% more horsepower for the fuel burned,
which, again, is about twice that required for gasoline. What it amounts
to is that gasoline is the most efficient of the three substances, but, in our
case, I will admit readily that efficiency is far down the list of
requirements. I have been running some tests, (of which the sampling is
small, admittedly) and I was surprised at the small rpm difference between 15%
standard Morgan Cool Power, and 30% Heli. If you need, or can discern, the
small difference involved, then of course it justifies the use of the 30%
stuff. In my case, it doesn't seem to justify the usage. When one
mixes in the Latent Heat of Vaporization, the waters are muddied even more, but
it probably is of small concern in engines the size of ours, due to the small
swept volume, and the variation of conditions having to do with cooling, both
external and internal.</DIV>
<DIV>Bill Glaze</DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 14, 2009 5:08
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs
Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Bill,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The heat energy per unit has little to do with the power we get
from an internal combustion engine. The limiting factor is how much air
we can get into the engine. Each fuel has an optimum ratio to be mixed
with the amount of air that enters the engine. Gasoline burns the
leanest. Methanol burns much richer, so more fuel goes into the engine
per stroke. Nitro is even richer. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've also read that nitro expands to a much larger volume when it
burns, even though it puts out less heat per unit than methanol, which
is one reason why nitro by itself puts out much more power than
methanol. I may open a can of worms when I say this, but it has been my
experience in both pattern planes and helicopters that higher nitro
makes the engine run cooler. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Think about it, methanol puts out less heat per unit, but develops
more power than gasoline. Gasoline engines must have larger cooling
fins, even though less power is being developed. Gasoline burns so lean
compared to methanol, this is the reason why gasoline carbs are more
complicated than alcohol carbs. Add nitro, then the needle must be
opened more and becomes less sensitive. This may be an over-simplistic
explanation because the thermodynamics are vastly different (methanol
provides a lot of internal cooling as it atomizes) but it works for me.
:-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/14/09, Bill Glaze
<I><billglaze@bellsouth.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
Bill Glaze <billglaze@bellsouth.net><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<BR>To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, December 14,
2009, 6:28 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1339268455>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The specific heat generated by gasoline
is about twice the specific heat generated by alcohol, which, in turn
is about twice the specific heat generated by nitro. In other
words, on a mass basis, nitro is a more inefficient fuel on a pure
basis than alcohol, which is less efficient than gasoline. (from
a volume/efficiency standpoint)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Or so my handbook stated when I was
building competition engines. Then why use nitro at all?
Well, because it generates more O2 than it needs to burn, thereby
helping the other "combustibles" complete their combustion, and it's
possible to run a hellacious load of nitro per cycle because of it's
burn characteristics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vicenterc@comcast.net"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 13, 2009
8:48 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
This email list is flawed in my opinion.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Matt,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It will be very interesting to see your results. I had
the chance to build and fly the Abbra with ZDZ 40. I was able
to comparare the same plane with OS160 back-to-back. Clearly
the ZDZ 40 was behind in power (or power-to-weight
ratio) when compared with the OS 160 when doing the Master
schedule of that time. I am sure that less fuel
consumption with less BTU content means less power. The Abbra
with the ZDZ 40 was ~3-4 oz over 11 lbs. The OS 160
Abbra was 9.8 lbs. I am not sure now what the new gasoline
engines manufactures are doing to increase the power. I
believe that an improvement in the design of gas engines is required
to make it usable for pattern. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:
rcmaster199@aol.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Sent:
Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:46:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed
in my opinion.<BR><BR></DIV><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes
that's true. When I was mixing my fuel I needed to do it by volume
until I figgered what the volume weighed for each of the nitro
blends I was mixing..... 30% nitro is around 10% denser (weighs
around 10% more for a tankful) than 15% nitro. <BR><BR>Soooo....the
guys who are running the YS not only use much larger tanks but their
tanks weigh more when full than they would have running lower nitro.
But YS is a dawg on lower nitro. You gotta admire YS Marketing
strategy<BR><BR>Yet another reason I am looking into gasoline
powerplants for pattern. Gas is significantly less dense than 30%
nitro blend and gas engines demand less fuel to begin with. A 320 cc
tank (around 11 ozs) will run the 30 cc engine for around 12
minutes, enough for about 1 2/3 master
schedules.<BR><BR><BR><BR>MattK<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: helvetica, arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Verne Koester <verne@twmi.rr.com><BR>To:
'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2009
11:24 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is
flawed in my opinion.<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_36928406-251f-4393-a13c-29f1a41a8f4c>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 16pt">The
weight of fuel is going to depend in large part on the percentage of
nitro. Nitro is the heaviest component. Don’t believe it? Go to the
hobby shop and pick up a gallon of 5% with one hand and 30% with the
other, preferably from the same manufacturer. You’ll be surprised. I
know I was when a fuel manufacturer showed me at Toledo about twenty
years ago. Fortunately, pilots with glow planes are weighed without
the fuel so they don’t have to worry about that…</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 16pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 16pt">Verne</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 16pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org&"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill's Email<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December
12, 2009 8:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list
is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal>Ed Alt wrote: </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal>About 0.75 oz per fluid oz.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>I just weighed a gallon of fuel I have
here. It was 7.8 pounds including the plastic jig. 0.75 ounces per
fluid ounce would mean the jug weighs +/- 29 ounces (1.8 pounds).
</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12px"
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