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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Actually less. You can either paint the
factory wings or cover the foam ones. The foam core with monokote is
considerably less than a PPG Concept painted wing, since you can go out and by
the parts from CA (see previous post). I've done it. Anyway, the point is,
you can make weight and you don't need to order a $4000, or even a
$2000 ARF to do it. The Integral is just one way to do it that I
happen to know about. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This discussion is really academic anyway, since
there is just one person you need to sway, and that would be your RC Aerobatics
Board Rep.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:26
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes,
that too would solve the problem. Same $400 more however. (Foam cores, wing
tube, contest balsa, covering, etc.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Alt<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list
is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It really just
needs foam wings/tail. Lighter LG helps, not
mandatory.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Saturday,
December 12, 2009 7:02 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my
opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave
(and Mrs. Burton <G>),<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">There
are many examples of the Integral that are close to the weight limit.
It is no secret that care must be taken to keep them <11 lbs.
So my question to you (which leads to the answer to your question), is
why did you buy the Integral to begin with (and why are so many others
buying planes that need to be built with care to stay <11
lbs)?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Lest
anyone think I am bashing the Integral, I am not, it is a good flying plane,
electric or glow (and one of the best values out there in terms of $$$ for
amount of prefab), and it is not the only plane for which care needs to be
taken to stay <11 lbs electric.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">OK,
so how come I got to spend about $400.00+ more to lose 4-5 ounces from my
Integral? (lighter servos, replacement CF gear and wing tube, LiPo
battery,)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
wife says 5K isn’t limiting MY cost.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:48 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave
B,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At
this point, it IS limiting the cost.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave
L<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:38 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What
is the purpose of the 5K limit? Is it to limit cost? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">“</SPAN>I’m
having a little problem understanding the logic of some of the anti-weight
arguments. If you are one that feels a pattern plane performs best
with a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means, continue to compete with that
setup. However, the weight increase would allow others to take a hard
look at alternate power sources whether it be gas or
electric.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Electric IS being flown now…and multiple
gasoline engines have been used (and still could be, and maybe are by
some).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and not
a size increase.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Bigger flies better. Pythons, Elans,
Prophecies, Arch Nemesis, etc…..all were/are 2M planes (ok, the Elan was
only 76”), and none are competitive today. Why? Because the 2M
today is bigger (and cost more) because the displacement limited was lifted.
The 2M plane today is limited by weight…remove the weight limit, and
the 2M plane will again get bigger (and more expensive).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“The added weight would probably also drive new muffler,
accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to provide
lighter weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys could
expand their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for the
NSRCA, which is admittedly hurting for new blood and
interest.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Save the electrics (which don’t need any
help in my opinion), this is the exact same discussion made by proponents
for removing the engine limit. And the cheaper engines and gasoline
engines for pattern never materialized…the OS and YS simply got bigger (more
expensive) and the planes got bigger (more expensive).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“As to cost, I think that argument is a
non-starter. When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or
electric power, 30% nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than
gasoline. Do the math…a season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is
going to offset any perceived increase in equipment costs. Savings in
fuel also rapidly offsets the higher electric costs.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************What is cheaper to buy and run… a 50cc or
100cc gas engine? There are viable gas engines now if that is your
preference.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>There are ZERO instances in pattern history I know of
where increasing any limit resulted in anything other than an increase in
cost.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob
Wilson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:29 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Personally, I’m for a weight increase, whether it’s a
pound or two or even unlimited as Dave advocates. I think it would be
good for the NSRCA by driving interest and new technology.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m having a little problem understanding the logic of
some of the anti-weight arguments. If you are one that feels a pattern
plane performs best with a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means, continue to
compete with that setup. However, the weight increase would allow
others to take a hard look at alternate power sources whether it be gas or
electric. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and not
a size increase. The 2-meter rule insures that the aircraft won’t
escalate in cost like we see at IMAC. However, if someone wants to
design a new biplane design to compensate for the added weight…so be it…go
for it.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The added weight would probably also drive new muffler,
accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to provide
lighter weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys could
expand their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for the
NSRCA, which is admittedly hurting for new blood and
interest.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As to cost, I think that argument is a non-starter.
When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or electric power, 30%
nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than gasoline. Do the math…a
season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is going to offset any perceived
increase in equipment costs. Savings in fuel also rapidly offsets the
higher electric costs.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Finally, the 5kg (11 lb) limit was established back in
the 1930’s for Free Flight airplanes. Within the FAI/CIAM both RC
Scale and RC Helicopters recognized the need to change the rules. Both
did that with increases to 7kg and 6kg respectively. Certainly,
pattern deserves the same consideration.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Bob Wilson<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Gordon Anderson <<A
href="mailto:GAA@owt.com">GAA@owt.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Mike,<BR><BR>Well said, I totally agree with your
comments. I am one of the people who rarely comment.<BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"><BR>--Gordon</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a hard time with a lot of the feedback that
circulates on this email list. It's too limited by the amount of people who
respond and the ones who do are usually the same guys. I find some of
the ones that respond a lot to be closed minded and are never swayed by a
good argument.<BR> I would warn people that asking for an opinion here
may have a very different response than say RCU where you get a broader
audience to sample from. I wish there was a way to get more people to
respond with opinions. I fear many have been drivin away.<BR> I also
wish we would all not be so quick to shoot down these opinions as it results
in less people asking for one and sharing any thoughts with us.<BR> I
enjoy an open discusssion with a lot of people chiming in.<BR> I
respect the opinions of everyone and do what I can to listen to the points
of both sides to form an opinion. Often the responses kill the
debate.<BR> Listening is a skill.<BR> There are times when some of
you could be wrong.<BR> Thanks for letting me share my
thoughts.<BR> Mike Mueller<BR><BR><BR>
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