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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ed, actually a majority of the contest board would have to be
for it. I doubt that will happen this cycle<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Does CA have a factory foam wing available? Only thing I have
seen info about was other suppliers of foam cores and build myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed Alt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Actually
less. You can either paint the factory wings or cover the foam
ones. The foam core with monokote is considerably less than a PPG Concept
painted wing, since you can go out and by the parts from CA (see previous
post). I've done it. Anyway, the point is, you can make weight and you
don't need to order a $4000, or even a $2000 ARF to do it. The
Integral is just one way to do it that I happen to know about. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
discussion is really academic anyway, since there is just one person you need
to sway, and that would be your RC Aerobatics Board Rep.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ed</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
title="burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, December
12, 2009 7:26 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes, that too would solve the problem. Same $400 more however.
(Foam cores, wing tube, contest balsa, covering, etc.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed Alt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It
really just needs foam wings/tail. Lighter LG helps, not mandatory.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net"
title="DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, December
12, 2009 7:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave (and Mrs. Burton <G>),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>There are many examples of the Integral that are close to the
weight limit. It is no secret that care must be taken to keep them <11
lbs. So my question to you (which leads to the answer to your question),
is why did you buy the Integral to begin with (and why are so many others
buying planes that need to be built with care to stay <11 lbs)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Lest anyone think I am bashing the Integral, I am not, it is a good
flying plane, electric or glow (and one of the best values out there in terms
of $$$ for amount of prefab), and it is not the only plane for which care needs
to be taken to stay <11 lbs electric.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>OK, so how come I got to spend about $400.00+ more to lose 4-5
ounces from my Integral? (lighter servos, replacement CF gear and wing tube,
LiPo battery,)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My wife says 5K isn’t limiting MY cost.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave B,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>At this point, it IS limiting the cost.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave L<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What is the purpose of the 5K limit? Is it to limit cost? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“</span>I’m having a little problem understanding the
logic of some of the anti-weight arguments. If you are one that feels a
pattern plane performs best with a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means,
continue to compete with that setup. However, the weight increase would
allow others to take a hard look at alternate power sources whether it be gas
or electric.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>*************Electric IS being flown now…and multiple
gasoline engines have been used (and still could be, and maybe are by some).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>“Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and
not a size increase.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>*************Bigger flies better. Pythons, Elans,
Prophecies, Arch Nemesis, etc…..all were/are 2M planes (ok, the Elan was
only 76”), and none are competitive today. Why? Because the
2M today is bigger (and cost more) because the displacement limited was lifted.
The 2M plane today is limited by weight…remove the weight limit,
and the 2M plane will again get bigger (and more expensive).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>“The added weight would probably also drive new
muffler, accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to
provide lighter weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys
could expand their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for
the NSRCA, which is admittedly hurting for new blood and interest.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>*************Save the electrics (which don’t need any
help in my opinion), this is the exact same discussion made by proponents for
removing the engine limit. And the cheaper engines and gasoline engines
for pattern never materialized…the OS and YS simply got bigger (more
expensive) and the planes got bigger (more expensive).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>“As to cost, I think that argument is a
non-starter. When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or
electric power, 30% nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than
gasoline. Do the math…a season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is
going to offset any perceived increase in equipment costs. Savings in
fuel also rapidly offsets the higher electric costs.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>*************What is cheaper to buy and run… a 50cc or
100cc gas engine? There are viable gas engines now if that is your
preference.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>There are ZERO instances in pattern history I know of where
increasing any limit resulted in anything other than an increase in cost.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob
Wilson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Personally, I’m for a weight increase, whether
it’s a pound or two or even unlimited as Dave advocates. I think it
would be good for the NSRCA by driving interest and new technology.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I’m having a little problem understanding the logic of
some of the anti-weight arguments. If you are one that feels a pattern
plane performs best with a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means, continue to
compete with that setup. However, the weight increase would allow others
to take a hard look at alternate power sources whether it be gas or
electric. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and not a
size increase. The 2-meter rule insures that the aircraft won’t
escalate in cost like we see at IMAC. However, if someone wants to design
a new biplane design to compensate for the added weight…so be it…go
for it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>The added weight would probably also drive new muffler,
accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to provide lighter
weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys could expand
their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for the NSRCA,
which is admittedly hurting for new blood and interest.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>As to cost, I think that argument is a non-starter.
When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or electric power, 30%
nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than gasoline. Do the
math…a season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is going to offset any
perceived increase in equipment costs. Savings in fuel also rapidly
offsets the higher electric costs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Finally, the 5kg (11 lb) limit was established back in the
1930’s for Free Flight airplanes. Within the FAI/CIAM both RC Scale
and RC Helicopters recognized the need to change the rules. Both did that
with increases to 7kg and 6kg respectively. Certainly, pattern deserves
the same consideration.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bob Wilson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Gordon Anderson <<a
href="mailto:GAA@owt.com">GAA@owt.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mike,<br>
<br>
Well said, I totally agree with your comments. I am one of the people who
rarely comment.<br>
<span style='color:#888888'><br>
--Gordon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have a hard time with a lot of the feedback that
circulates on this email list. It's too limited by the amount of people who
respond and the ones who do are usually the same guys. I find some of the
ones that respond a lot to be closed minded and are never swayed by a good argument.<br>
I would warn people that asking for an opinion here may have a very
different response than say RCU where you get a broader audience to sample
from. I wish there was a way to get more people to respond with opinions.
I fear many have been drivin away.<br>
I also wish we would all not be so quick to shoot down these opinions as
it results in less people asking for one and sharing any thoughts with us.<br>
I enjoy an open discusssion with a lot of people chiming in.<br>
I respect the opinions of everyone and do what I can to listen to the
points of both sides to form an opinion. Often the responses kill the
debate.<br>
Listening is a skill.<br>
There are times when some of you could be wrong.<br>
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.<br>
Mike Mueller<br>
<br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
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