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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Please read the NSRCA archives to find all
the pros and cons about this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’ll try to keep this simple.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. Fact - pattern planes benefit
from high power and low weight.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. Fact – bigger flies better.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. Fact - the equipment and planes with
the best power to weight ratio will always have a competitive advantage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4. Fact – the equipment and
planes with the best power to weight ratio cost more money.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>5. Fact – in a competitive
event, the top levels of performance will only be achieved with the best
equipment (in this case, the more expensive stuff with the best power to weight
ratio).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If the available size or weight was
increased, and the available power and size of planes did not increase (pipe
dream), the heavier planes would not gain any advantage (and in fact be at a
disadvantage). Short term result could be a decrease in the average price
(and competitiveness relative to the top levels) of the plane on the flightline.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If the available size or weight is
increased, the available power and size of planes will increase (competitors
want competitive advantages) and the formerly competitive 2M planes will be at
a competitive disadvantage (at any weight) to the newer, larger, more powerful
planes. And someone will build one of the newer, larger, more powerful
planes just a tad over the weight (or size) limit and want to increase the
limits again. Endless cycle of endless cost escalation. And for
those that want to point out how cheap 80” IMAC planes are……it
is apples and oranges to compare them to pattern planes. Look at the cost
of 50, 100, or 150cc IMAC style planes that have the same power to weight ratio
and servo power as a top level 2M pattern plane, and the cost is not comparable
to a cheap 80” IMAC style plane, and it is certainly far greater than the
average current day 2M plane.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There is no need to change the rules to be
able to fly a cheaper, heavier, less competitive setup. That can easily
be done now – use a plane smaller than 2M – plenty exist and easily
fit the current rules structure (and prior to the current rules, they were the “best”).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
6:01 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Arch, you may be
right on this, but I wonder how many pattern flyers would do this. Seems to me
that cheaper 2 M mono planes could be available without the carbon
fiber/Kevlar/titanium/aluminum expensive stuff we use today to get under 11
lbs. How big can you make a 2 meter plane within the 2 meter box. So what if
gas engines could be used. Probably would be cheaper than the YS 170 CDI in use
today. I could certainly use the under $200.00 AXI 5330 FAI rather than
the $500+ Pletty. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I don’t know
if the rules proposal has much merit or not, but I wanted to get it on the
table for consideration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Archie Stafford<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
5:30 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Very simple
statement. Open your checkbook if this passes. Big 2 meter bipes
will be the norm. YS will come out with a 50CC size engine that blows
away other gas or Nitro setups, and much bigger, more powerful electric setups
to remain competitive. People thing this would reduce the cost, it will
do exactly the opposite. You are right Dave, there is no competitive advantage
to a plane of the size we are flying now being 11 1/2lbs, but be able to build
a 13lb bipe with unlimited power and watch what happens.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Arch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
5:16 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> jpavlick@idseng.com; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Yep! I've got a G-62 laying around here that I have no use
for--until now.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" title="jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Friday, December
11, 2009 4:47 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Excellent! Looks like I can finally build a
gas-powered biplane. LOL<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 12/11/09, Dave Burton <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes<br>
To: "'<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 4:38 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have submitted a rules proposal to completely
eliminate the 11 lb. Weight<br>
limit in AMA pattern classes. (proposal 11-11).<br>
I'd like to see some discussion on the pros and cons of this proposal on the<br>
NSRCA e-mail list and the Pattern forum.<br>
<br>
My reasons for submitting the proposal include the following points:<br>
<br>
1. There is no competitive advantage to a heavier plane with the 2 meter<br>
size constraint (in fact I'd argue a heavier plane is usually at a<br>
disadvantage and perhaps a minimum weight makes more sense than a maximum)<br>
2. The 2 meter size constraint is sufficient keep the weight of pattern<br>
planes to reasonable limits.<br>
3. The fact that AMA class planes are weighed only at the US Nationals gives<br>
proof that the rule is not now enforced and not needed.<br>
4. The 11 lb. Weight limit drives up the cost of pattern planes through the<br>
necessary use of more expensive high tech materials. (If you don't believe<br>
"light weight" cost a lot of money ask the people who race sail
boats)<br>
5. Removing the weight limit will reduce the manpower and cost associated<br>
with running the Nationals And also perhaps increase participation.<br>
<br>
OK, guys, what do you think?<br>
What other "pro" and "con" points?<br>
Dave Burton<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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