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Bill,<br>
<br>
I believe that we can put together a team to address a national
database. I am quite willing to work on belling that cat.<br>
However, first we need buyin from the NSRCA that it would be used for
advancement/relegation or some other useful specified purpose. Second,
the results reporting is required only to the AMA as part of the
contest sanction. It appears that at the moment they are not organized
enough to keep track of rules proposals. Since they have no requirement
to do anything with those results you know they are ending up thrown in
a file, circular or otherwise.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
Bill Glaze wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:D0A75BDCB58E4CCFB1F910082E0B2ACB@glazecstp32xp"
type="cite">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I would also, as you suggested, like
to see a system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when
the rules (what ever they may be established at) say to do so, that
person moves. It works very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Problem: Like the mice who decided
that they would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up on them,
were stopped in their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply,
"good idea. But who's going to put the bell on the cat?"</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The logical place would be the AMA,
but that won't happen. According to Tony, they don't even want to have
the Nats; they'd go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all
the contest scores from throughout the nation..</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Bill Glaze</font></div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jgghome@comcast.net"
href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:28 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Mike,<br>
<br>
What is the point of a mandatory system for advancement without a
central organization keeping track? That makes it voluntary. Sort of
like posting a speed limit but guaranteeing that there are no cops on
the road. <br>
There are also huge differences in the depth and quality of the
competition geographically. You may be chief frog in your little puddle
but if you venture out into the ocean you are in way over your head.<br>
If you must have an advancement system, it should be done the Aussie
way. Keep a national database of raw scores, establish national
averages for class advancement, and kick flyers into the next class
when they exceed the National average three times in a year. It also
allows for relegating down a class if you don't maintain a minimum
scoring standard. Not perfect but a whole lot better than ours.<br>
<br>
Or.... we could just change the advancement system to a guideline or
even abolish it.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
michael s harrison wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:001201ca534f$fdcf3f20$f96dbd60$@net"
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">I
personally don’t think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it
should be overhauled. I would recommend something on the order of 5
points for 1<sup>st</sup>, 3 for 2<sup>nd</sup> and 1 for 3<sup>rd</sup>
for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have
to have 2 first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario
would give the pilot 1<sup>st</sup> place at 10 contests before
movement is required. If the pilot never places first, he would never
be required to advance. Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3
pilots compete. <O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">I
believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up
voluntarily-most of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and
balance system is warranted, IMO.<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Mike<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<O:P></O:P></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><O:P></O:P></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jim,<O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You make some excellent points and in large
part I agree with you. I don't, however, see how your response has
addressed the food for thought questions I presented. Let me put it a
different way that might make more sense.<O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Masters is the "accepted" destination class,
but every pattern pilot has his own destination class based on a number
of factors. In a perfect world every individual internally defines
thier destination class, and I think that is what you are saying below.
Know your abilities and life situation and fly in the appropriate class
for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What I was
suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors
that push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.<O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At the end of the day, it feels like I
am closing the door after the horse is already out of the barn because
this issue has already been addressed, for the most part. I think
removing forced advancement and allowing movement up and down between
classes will solve those problems.<O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, like the old Saturday Night Live
sketch.... Nevermind. <O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><O:P></O:P></p>
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"> </span></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;"> J N
Hiller <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><jnhiller@earthlink.net></a><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:58:49 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">I think
the right approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow
moving back and change the advanced sequence every two years.</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">Like most
voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to
masters because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had
gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage
I use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid
season the second year it was dropping a clear indication that my
interest was dropping and needed additional challenges.</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">For most
of us proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick
time flying in all conditions over an extended period of time and has
nothing to do with how many times you beat someone that's having a bad
day or can't get out to practice. Some of us still have work and family
commitments that take priority.</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">Stay in
advanced until you feel the need for something more challenging or
through several sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons
and offers valuable experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence
your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse
conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For example,
maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind
is about twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the
6-side outside loop on a windy day. </span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">As for the
pile up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in
masters. Probably half have flown with and against each other from
pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has
been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to
FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection
program and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at
local contests allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only
effectively reducing masters class numbers. </span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">The bottom
line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your
ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how
well someone else flies or doesn't fly.</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">Sorry
about getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying
pattern and traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never
gets any easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other
way.</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">Jim Hiller
</span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;"></span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="emailstyle18"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;"></span></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Here is a silly question:</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"><br>
Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being
"acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a "relatively
competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am usually
competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I already
feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not
mastered advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok
to stay there until you felt completely comfortable with all elements
of the class? would that equlize participant distribution in other
classes? I know a couple of people in D4 that are doing well in
advanced but not consistantly dominant. If they move up to masters they
will almost certainly have less fun and will absolutely struggle at
contests. Should they be allowed to stay in advanced forever if they
like? Perhaps that is the limit of their natural flying ability or the
highest level they can ascend to given their life situation (work,
practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke with D5 pilot
this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I moved up because
it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as well as I need
to, I just don't have enough time to practice". </span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">I don't know what the right approach is but we
should consider the entire picture as we look for answers. The problem
may now be with the sequences at all, but with the general feeling that
a particular pilot has to move up before they are ready. I guess that
is the old advancement discussion again.</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Thanks</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Anthony</span><O:P></O:P></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"></span><O:P></O:P></p>
<div style="margin-left: 0.5in;">
<div style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"> </span></div>
</div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
Stuart Chale <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net"><schale@optonline.net></a><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:26:02 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<br>
</span><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 11pt;"><br>
8 to 1 middle of the 9th.<br>
In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think
the lower classes need to be a little harder. Probably even Masters.
Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like
it, makes for good competition in that class. I do not want to come in
second in my class (and last) :)<br>
Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not
move up as quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced,
add some integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be
more fliers in the lower classes, would the classes be more even?
Don't know. Is this what we want?<br>
<br>
Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from their
current class? There needs to be an increase in difficulty which there
is. You should have to work at the next class when moving up.<br>
<br>
Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :) They
really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the
idea of decreased space use that we have with turnaround. IMAC has the
same problem. They have a score for proper airspace use which includes
a reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
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