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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I would also, as you suggested, like to see a
system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when the rules (what
ever they may be established at) say to do so, that person moves. It works
very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Problem: Like the mice who decided that they
would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up on them, were stopped in
their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply, "good idea. But
who's going to put the bell on the cat?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The logical place would be the AMA, but that won't
happen. According to Tony, they don't even want to have the Nats; they'd
go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all the contest scores from
throughout the nation..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:28
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Mike,<BR><BR>What is the point of a mandatory system for
advancement without a central organization keeping track? That makes it
voluntary. Sort of like posting a speed limit but guaranteeing that there are
no cops on the road. <BR>There are also huge differences in the depth and
quality of the competition geographically. You may be chief frog in your
little puddle but if you venture out into the ocean you are in way over your
head.<BR>If you must have an advancement system, it should be done the Aussie
way. Keep a national database of raw scores, establish national averages for
class advancement, and kick flyers into the next class when they exceed
the National average three times in a year. It also allows for relegating down
a class if you don't maintain a minimum scoring standard. Not perfect but a
whole lot better than ours.<BR><BR>Or.... we could just change the advancement
system to a guideline or even abolish it.<BR><BR>John Gayer<BR><BR>michael s
harrison wrote:
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
personally don’t think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it
should be overhauled. I would recommend something on the order of 5
points for 1<SUP>st</SUP>, 3 for 2<SUP>nd</SUP> and 1 for 3<SUP>rd</SUP> for
a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have to have
2 first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario would
give the pilot 1<SUP>st</SUP> place at 10 contests before movement is
required. If the pilot never places first, he would never be required
to advance. Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots
compete. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up voluntarily-most
of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and balance system is
warranted, IMO.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 22,
2009 12:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Jim,<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>You make some excellent points and in large part I agree
with you. I don't, however, see how your response has addressed the food for
thought questions I presented. Let me put it a different way that might make
more sense.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Masters is the "accepted" destination class, but every
pattern pilot has his own destination class based on a number of
factors. In a perfect world every individual internally defines
thier destination class, and I think that is what you are saying below. Know
your abilities and life situation and fly in the appropriate class for your
skills until you feel the need to move up. What I was suggesting we think
about is addressing some of the external factors that push people to a class
they are not prepared for or interested in.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>At the end of the day, it feels like I am closing
the door after the horse is already out of the barn because this issue has
already been addressed, for the most part. I think removing forced
advancement and allowing movement up and down between classes will solve
those problems.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>So, like the old Saturday Night Live sketch....
Nevermind. <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=1 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> J N Hiller <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><jnhiller@earthlink.net></A><BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:58:49 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think the right
approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow moving back and
change the advanced sequence every two years.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Like most
voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to masters
because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had gotten a new
sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage I use is my
contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid season the second year
it was dropping a clear indication that my interest was dropping and needed
additional challenges.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For most of us
proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick time flying
in all conditions over an extended period of time and has nothing to do with
how many times you beat someone that's having a bad day or can't get out to
practice. Some of us still have work and family commitments that take
priority.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Stay in advanced
until you feel the need for something more challenging or through several
sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons and offers valuable
experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence your comfortable with in
adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse conditions only compounds the
difficulty when moving up. For example, maintaining figure M geometry, track
and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is about twice as hard and probably 4 times
as hard as flying the 6-side outside loop on a windy day.
</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As for the pile
up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in masters.
Probably half have flown with and against each other from pre-turnaround and
likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has been a destination class
for a very long time not a steeping stone to FAI. In years past FAI team
selection was through a masters selection program and FAI wasn't even flown
at most local contests. Adding FAI at local contests allowed them to fly a
single event / schedule only effectively reducing masters class numbers.
</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The bottom line
is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your ability by your
own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how well someone else
flies or doesn't fly.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sorry about
getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying pattern and
traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never gets any easier
but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other
way.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim Hiller
</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 22, 2009
7:47 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Here is a silly question:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><BR>Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a
function of it being "acceptable" to park there as much as anything
else? I am a "relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class
but I am usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of
spoiler, I already feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I
still have not mastered advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if
it felt ok to stay there until you felt completely comfortable with all
elements of the class? would that equlize participant distribution in
other classes? I know a couple of people in D4 that are doing well in
advanced but not consistantly dominant. If they move up to masters they will
almost certainly have less fun and will absolutely struggle at
contests. Should they be allowed to stay in advanced forever if they like?
Perhaps that is the limit of their natural flying ability or the highest
level they can ascend to given their life situation (work, practice time,
budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke with D5 pilot this summer
that said "I should not be in masters, I moved up because it was time to but
i can't really fly this pattern as well as I need to, I just don't have
enough time to practice". </SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I
don't know what the right approach is but we should consider the entire
picture as we look for answers. The problem may now be with the
sequences at all, but with the general feeling that a particular pilot has
to move up before they are ready. I guess that is the old advancement
discussion again.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thanks</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Anthony</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=1 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Stuart Chale <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net"><schale@optonline.net></A><BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:26:02 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR>8
to 1 middle of the 9th.<BR>In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the
minority but I think the lower classes need to be a little harder.
Probably even Masters. Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching
up in Masters. I like it, makes for good competition in that
class. I do not want to come in second in my class (and last)
:)<BR>Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not
move up as quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced,
add some integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be
more fliers in the lower classes, would the classes be more even?
Don't know. Is this what we want?<BR><BR>Should someone be "prepared"
to go to the next higher class from their current class? There needs
to be an increase in difficulty which there is. You should have to
work at the next class when moving up.<BR><BR>Rollers, love to watch them
done well, but can't do them well :) They really do use a lot of real
estate though and sort of goes against the idea of decreased space use that
we have with turnaround. IMAC has the same problem. They have a
score for proper airspace use which includes a reduced footprint but has
rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<BR><BR>Stuart
C.<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
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class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><PRE wrap=""><HR SIZE=4 width="90%">
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