<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>It pains me to say it, but Ron is dead on! We use performance in local contests as a basis for advancement when there isn't always a strong correlation between local success and one's ability to fly the sequence.</DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Ron Hansen <rcpilot@wowway.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:40:40 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR></FONT><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree with Mark. I’ve been flying intermediate for 4 years and I have no idea how many points I’ve accumulated and I really don’t care to keep track. I finished 12th out of 22 at the NATS this year, I was the D4 champ in 2007 and 2009. I won half of the D4 meets this year. I certainly don’t think I’m grooving the intermediate sequence yet. The guy who won the intermediate NATS this year probably would have won the D4 championships this year in advanced. So how you do at the local level is completely irrelevant in most cases.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Exactly, and this is the conundrum. There is no good way to do that. We’ve tried the sliding scale over a number of years and that really hasn’t change anything. Those who “Top out” near the top of a class eventually get stuck moving to the class above where they really don’t belong.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">There seems to be lots of worry about abuse…and yet no one has ever really had an example of any. We don’t have “abuse” in Masters/FAI, why do we assume that we’ll have it between Masters/Advanced…or Advanced/Sportsman? </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">At the end of the day, if you can’t beat the guy, you have room for improvement. I think the concern about abuse is speculation at best. Worst case, we eliminate the points system, we have MASSIVE sandbagging (I know Jason is probably studying the 2011 advanced pattern as we speak…though he can fly that under the CURRENT rules since he never flew masters) and we change the rule back.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Let’s give “open class movement” a try.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Mark Atwood</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>J N Hiller<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:17 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I disagree. If were to have any kind of mandatory advancement, it needs to be based on the individual's performance not contest placement.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>michael s harrison<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I personally don’t think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it should be overhauled. I would recommend something on the order of 5 points for 1<SUP>st</SUP>, 3 for 2<SUP>nd</SUP> and 1 for 3<SUP>rd</SUP> for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have to have 2 first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario would give the pilot 1<SUP>st</SUP> place at 10 contests before movement is required. If the pilot never places first, he would never be required to advance. Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up voluntarily-most of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and balance system is warranted, IMO.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Mike</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:54 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Jim,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">You make some excellent points and in large part I agree with you. I don't, however, see how your response has addressed the food for thought questions I presented. Let me put it a different way that might make more sense.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Masters is the "accepted" destination class, but every pattern pilot has his own destination class based on a number of factors. In a perfect world every individual internally defines thier destination class, and I think that is what you are saying below. Know your abilities and life situation and fly in the appropriate class for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What I was suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors that push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">At the end of the day, it feels like I am closing the door after the horse is already out of the barn because this issue has already been addressed, for the most part. I think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up and down between classes will solve those problems.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">So, like the old Saturday Night Live sketch.... Nevermind. </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> J N Hiller <jnhiller@earthlink.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:58:49 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think the right approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow moving back and change the advanced sequence every two years.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Like most voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to masters because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage I use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid season the second year it was dropping a clear indication that my interest was dropping and needed additional challenges.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For most of us proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick time flying in all conditions over an extended period of time and has nothing to do with how many times you beat someone that's having a bad day or can't get out to practice. Some of us still have work and family commitments that take priority.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stay in advanced until you feel the need for something more challenging or through several sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons and offers valuable experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For example, maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is about twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the 6-side outside loop on a windy day. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As for the pile up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in masters. Probably half have flown with and against each other from pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection program and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at local contests allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only effectively reducing masters class numbers. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The bottom line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how well someone else flies or doesn't fly.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sorry about getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying pattern and traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never gets any easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other way.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><SPAN class=emailstyle18><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim Hiller </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:47 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Here is a silly question:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><BR>Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being "acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a "relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I already feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not mastered advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok to stay there until you felt completely comfortable with all elements of the class? would that equlize participant distribution in other classes? I know a couple of people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not consistantly dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly have less fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be allowed to stay in
advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the limit of their natural flying ability or the highest level they can ascend to given their life situation (work, practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke with D5 pilot this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I moved up because it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as well as I need to, I just don't have enough time to practice". </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I don't know what the right approach is but we should consider the entire picture as we look for answers. The problem may now be with the sequences at all, but with the general feeling that a particular pilot has to move up before they are ready. I guess that is the old advancement discussion again.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Thanks</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Anthony</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Stuart Chale <schale@optonline.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:26:02 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>8 to 1 middle of the 9th.<BR>In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think the lower classes need to be a little harder. Probably even Masters. Most
areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like it, makes for good competition in that class. I do not want to come in second in my class (and last) :)<BR>Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not move up as quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be more fliers in the lower classes, would the classes be more even? Don't know. Is this what we want?<BR><BR>Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from their current class? There needs to be an increase in difficulty which there is. You should have to work at the next class when moving up.<BR><BR>Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :) They really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the idea of decreased space use that we have with turnaround. IMAC has the
same problem. They have a score for proper airspace use which includes a reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<BR><BR>Stuart C.<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></FONT></P>
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