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Jim,<br>
<br>
I still like the proposal I made in that thread....<br>
<br>
<pre>/ how about changing the AMA advancemant rule and keep it very simple?
Your first contest of the year will determine your class for the year.
You may go up one class at any time during the year but may not go back
down during the year. At the start of the next year you may drop back
one class at your option, stay where you are or go up a class.
This is simple enough that your fellow competitiors will know if you are
following the rules. It will also be up to your fellow competitiors
through peer pressure to insure that you are not sandbagging.
/
</pre>
The National database proposal is actually in:<br>
<a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/2007-August/054406.html">[NSRCA-discussion]
[Fwd: Proposal]
</a><a name="54406"></a><br>
<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote:
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pre
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle24"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We got
into this back in August 2007. Here is a link <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/2007-August/subject.html">http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/2007-August/subject.html</a>
Drop down to "[Fwd: Proposal]". While there look at "</span></font></span><span
class="MsoHyperlink"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; text-decoration: none;">Advancement:
let's wrap it up".</span></font></span><span class="EmailStyle24"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle24"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I was very
interested in this at the time but the logistics of collecting the data
and
maintaining a database were overwhelming and would likely be
incomplete. The
data would need to be voluntarily submitted by the CD in a downloadable
format.
Yes it could be done but would it? I agreed that eliminating mandatory
advancement would be a more workable solution. I still think the
concept of classification
based on raw score average would be great. I had raw score info from an
old
NATS (1987) and loaded a spreadsheet to get an idea what the raw score
percentages might look like in order to try to come up with a an
appropriate range
to participate in a given class, above which the competitor should be
advanced
and below which he could go back. Obviously we would need current info
to come
up with hard numbers, probably requiring that data be collected for a
year
prior to detailing a proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle24"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">In any
case you may wish to revisit the previous discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle24"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle24"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>John Gayer<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, October
23, 2009
10:47 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Bill,<br>
<br>
I believe that we can put together a team to address a national
database. I am
quite willing to work on belling that cat.<br>
However, first we need buyin from the NSRCA that it would be used for
advancement/relegation or some other useful specified purpose. Second,
the
results reporting is required only to the AMA as part of the contest
sanction.
It appears that at the moment they are not organized enough to keep
track of
rules proposals. Since they have no requirement to do anything with
those
results you know they are ending up thrown in a file, circular or
otherwise.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
Bill Glaze wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I would also, as you
suggested, like
to see a system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when
the rules
(what ever they may be established at) say to do so, that person
moves.
It works very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Problem: Like the mice
who
decided that they would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up
on them,
were stopped in their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply,
"good idea. But who's going to put the bell on the cat?"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The logical place would
be the AMA,
but that won't happen. According to Tony, they don't even want to have
the Nats; they'd go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all
the
contest scores from throughout the nation..</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1in;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Bill Glaze</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
<div style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message
----- </div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
<div
style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; background-attachment: scroll; background-repeat: repeat;">From:<font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a
href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net" title="jgghome@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">John Gayer</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>
</span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
<div style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">To:<font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send="true">General
pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>
</span></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
<div style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Sent:<font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Thursday,
October 22, 2009 4:28 PM</span></font></div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
<div style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Subject:<font
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 76.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Mike,<br>
<br>
What is the point of a mandatory system for advancement without a
central
organization keeping track? That makes it voluntary. Sort of like
posting a
speed limit but guaranteeing that there are no cops on the road. <br>
There are also huge differences in the depth and quality of the
competition
geographically. You may be chief frog in your little puddle but if you
venture
out into the ocean you are in way over your head.<br>
If you must have an advancement system, it should be done the Aussie
way. Keep
a national database of raw scores, establish national averages for
class
advancement, and kick flyers into the next class when they exceed the
National average three times in a year. It also allows for relegating
down a
class if you don't maintain a minimum scoring standard. Not perfect but
a whole
lot better than ours.<br>
<br>
Or.... we could just change the advancement system to a guideline or
even
abolish it.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
michael s harrison wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
</div>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="#1f497d"
face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<u1:shapedefaults u2:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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</xml><![endif]-->I
personally don’t think the mandatory system should be
abandoned, but it should be overhauled. I would recommend something on
the order of 5 points for 1<sup>st</sup>, 3 for 2<sup>nd</sup> and 1
for 3<sup>rd</sup>
for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have
to have
2 first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario would
give
the pilot 1<sup>st</sup> place at 10 contests before movement is
required.
If the pilot never places first, he would never be required to
advance.
Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete. <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="#1f497d"
face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up
voluntarily-most of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and
balance
system is warranted, IMO.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="#1f497d"
face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><O:P></O:P>Mike<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
</div>
<div style="border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;"><O:P></O:P>From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony
Abdullah<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
October 22, 2009
12:54 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jim,<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">You
make some
excellent points and in large part I agree with you. I don't, however,
see how
your response has addressed the food for thought questions I presented.
Let me
put it a different way that might make more sense.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Masters
is
the "accepted" destination class, but every pattern pilot has his own
destination class based on a number of factors. In a perfect world
every individual internally defines thier destination class, and I
think that
is what you are saying below. Know your abilities and life situation
and fly in
the appropriate class for your skills until you feel the need to move
up. What
I was suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external
factors that
push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">At the
end of the day, it feels like I am closing the door after the horse is
already out of the barn because this issue has already been addressed,
for the
most part. I think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up
and down between classes will solve those problems.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">So,
like the old Saturday Night Live sketch.... Nevermind. <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; text-align: center;"
align="center"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></div>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 112.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> J N
Hiller <a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><jnhiller@earthlink.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
October 22, 2009
12:58:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I think the right
approach is on the way, dump
mandatory advancement and allow moving back and change the advanced
sequence
every two years.</span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Like most voluntary
activities we name our own
poison. I voluntarily moved to masters because I was getting too
complacent
flying advanced. If we had gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably
would
have stayed. The gage I use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score
average. By mid season the second year it was dropping a clear
indication that
my interest was dropping and needed additional challenges.</span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">For most of us
proficiency flying pattern includes a
lot of experience / stick time flying in all conditions over an
extended period
of time and has nothing to do with how many times you beat someone
that's
having a bad day or can't get out to practice. Some of us still have
work and
family commitments that take priority.</span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Stay in advanced until
you feel the need for
something more challenging or through several sequence changes. Each
new
sequence teaches new lessons and offers valuable experience and the
opportunity
to fly a sequence your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions.
Flying
in adverse conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For
example,
maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind
is about
twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the 6-side outside
loop on
a windy day. </span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">As for the pile up in
masters ask them how long they
have flown pattern been in masters. Probably half have flown with and
against
each other from pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters
class is
and has been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping
stone to
FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection
program
and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at local
contests
allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only effectively reducing
masters
class numbers. </span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The bottom line is, fly
and compete where you are comfortable
and judge your ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K
rather than
on how well someone else flies or doesn't fly.</span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Sorry about getting on my
soap box but I really like
the challenge of flying pattern and traveling around flying with old
and new
friends. It never gets any easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't
have it
any other way.</span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
class="emailstyle18"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim Hiller </span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black" face="Tahoma"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><O:P></O:P>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
October 22, 2009
7:47 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Here
is a silly question:<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being
"acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a
"relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am
usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I
already
feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not
mastered
advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok to stay
there
until you felt completely comfortable with all elements of the class?
would
that equlize participant distribution in other classes? I know a
couple of people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not
consistantly
dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly have
less
fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be allowed to
stay in
advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the limit of their
natural
flying ability or the highest level they can ascend to given their life
situation (work, practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I
spoke
with D5 pilot this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I
moved up because it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as
well as
I need to, I just don't have enough time to practice". <o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I
don't know what the right approach is but we should consider the entire
picture
as we look for answers. The problem may now be with the sequences at
all,
but with the general feeling that a particular pilot has to move up
before they
are ready. I guess that is the old advancement discussion again.<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><O:P></O:P><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Anthony<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; text-align: center;"
align="center"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></div>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 148.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Stuart Chale <a
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><schale@optonline.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October
20, 2009
11:26:02 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
8 to 1 middle of the 9th.<br>
In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think
the
lower classes need to be a little harder. Probably even Masters.
Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like
it,
makes for good competition in that class. I do not want to come in
second
in my class (and last) :)<br>
Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not
move up as
quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some
integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be more fliers
in
the lower classes, would the classes be more even? Don't know. Is
this what we want?<br>
<br>
Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from
their current class? There needs to be an increase in difficulty which
there is. You should have to work at the next class when moving up.<br>
<br>
Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :) They
really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the
idea of
decreased space use that we have with turnaround. IMAC has the same
problem. They have a score for proper airspace use which includes a
reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></p>
</div>
<div
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<pre
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: center;"
wrap=""><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font
color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" size="4" width="90%">
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<pre
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></pre>
<pre
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></pre>
<pre
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
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color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></pre>
<pre
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 1in; margin-left: 112.2pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></pre>
<pre
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size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font
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face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></pre>
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