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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>We got
into this back in August 2007. Here is a link <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/2007-August/subject.html">http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/2007-August/subject.html</a>
Drop down to "[Fwd: Proposal]". While there look at "</span></font></span><span
class=MsoHyperlink><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;text-decoration:
none;text-underline:none'>Advancement: let's wrap it up".</span></font></span><span
class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I was very
interested in this at the time but the logistics of collecting the data and
maintaining a database were overwhelming and would likely be incomplete. The
data would need to be voluntarily submitted by the CD in a downloadable format.
Yes it could be done but would it? I agreed that eliminating mandatory
advancement would be a more workable solution. I still think the concept of classification
based on raw score average would be great. I had raw score info from an old
NATS (1987) and loaded a spreadsheet to get an idea what the raw score
percentages might look like in order to try to come up with a an appropriate range
to participate in a given class, above which the competitor should be advanced
and below which he could go back. Obviously we would need current info to come
up with hard numbers, probably requiring that data be collected for a year
prior to detailing a proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In any
case you may wish to revisit the previous discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Gayer<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 23, 2009
10:47 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bill,<br>
<br>
I believe that we can put together a team to address a national database. I am
quite willing to work on belling that cat.<br>
However, first we need buyin from the NSRCA that it would be used for
advancement/relegation or some other useful specified purpose. Second, the
results reporting is required only to the AMA as part of the contest sanction.
It appears that at the moment they are not organized enough to keep track of
rules proposals. Since they have no requirement to do anything with those
results you know they are ending up thrown in a file, circular or otherwise.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
Bill Glaze wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would also, as you suggested, like
to see a system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when the rules
(what ever they may be established at) say to do so, that person moves.
It works very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Problem: Like the mice who
decided that they would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up on them,
were stopped in their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply,
"good idea. But who's going to put the bell on the cat?"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The logical place would be the AMA,
but that won't happen. According to Tony, they don't even want to have
the Nats; they'd go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all the
contest scores from throughout the nation..</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bill Glaze</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>----- Original Message
----- </div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%;background-repeat:repeat'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"
title="jgghome@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send=true>John Gayer</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Thursday,
October 22, 2009 4:28 PM</div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</div>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Mike,<br>
<br>
What is the point of a mandatory system for advancement without a central
organization keeping track? That makes it voluntary. Sort of like posting a
speed limit but guaranteeing that there are no cops on the road. <br>
There are also huge differences in the depth and quality of the competition
geographically. You may be chief frog in your little puddle but if you venture
out into the ocean you are in way over your head.<br>
If you must have an advancement system, it should be done the Aussie way. Keep
a national database of raw scores, establish national averages for class
advancement, and kick flyers into the next class when they exceed the
National average three times in a year. It also allows for relegating down a
class if you don't maintain a minimum scoring standard. Not perfect but a whole
lot better than ours.<br>
<br>
Or.... we could just change the advancement system to a guideline or even
abolish it.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br>
michael s harrison wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
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</xml><![endif]-->I personally don’t think the mandatory system should be
abandoned, but it should be overhauled. I would recommend something on
the order of 5 points for 1<sup>st</sup>, 3 for 2<sup>nd</sup> and 1 for 3<sup>rd</sup>
for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have to have
2 first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario would give
the pilot 1<sup>st</sup> place at 10 contests before movement is required.
If the pilot never places first, he would never be required to advance.
Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete. <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>I believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up
voluntarily-most of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and balance
system is warranted, IMO.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'><O:P></O:P>Mike<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:
solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'><O:P></O:P>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send=true>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
12:54 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jim,<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>You make some
excellent points and in large part I agree with you. I don't, however, see how
your response has addressed the food for thought questions I presented. Let me
put it a different way that might make more sense.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Masters is
the "accepted" destination class, but every pattern pilot has his own
destination class based on a number of factors. In a perfect world
every individual internally defines thier destination class, and I think that
is what you are saying below. Know your abilities and life situation and fly in
the appropriate class for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What
I was suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors that
push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>At the
end of the day, it feels like I am closing the door after the horse is
already out of the barn because this issue has already been addressed, for the
most part. I think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up
and down between classes will solve those problems.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>So,
like the old Saturday Night Live sketch.... Nevermind. <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;margin-left:112.2pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:112.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> J N
Hiller <a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" moz-do-not-send=true><jnhiller@earthlink.net></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
12:58:49 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I think the right approach is on the way, dump
mandatory advancement and allow moving back and change the advanced sequence
every two years.</span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Like most voluntary activities we name our own
poison. I voluntarily moved to masters because I was getting too complacent
flying advanced. If we had gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would
have stayed. The gage I use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score
average. By mid season the second year it was dropping a clear indication that
my interest was dropping and needed additional challenges.</span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For most of us proficiency flying pattern includes a
lot of experience / stick time flying in all conditions over an extended period
of time and has nothing to do with how many times you beat someone that's
having a bad day or can't get out to practice. Some of us still have work and
family commitments that take priority.</span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Stay in advanced until you feel the need for
something more challenging or through several sequence changes. Each new
sequence teaches new lessons and offers valuable experience and the opportunity
to fly a sequence your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions. Flying
in adverse conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For example,
maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is about
twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the 6-side outside loop on
a windy day. </span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As for the pile up in masters ask them how long they
have flown pattern been in masters. Probably half have flown with and against
each other from pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is
and has been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to
FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection program
and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at local contests
allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only effectively reducing masters
class numbers. </span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The bottom line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable
and judge your ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than
on how well someone else flies or doesn't fly.</span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Sorry about getting on my soap box but I really like
the challenge of flying pattern and traveling around flying with old and new
friends. It never gets any easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it
any other way.</span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=emailstyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller </span></font></span><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><O:P></O:P>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send=true>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
7:47 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Here
is a silly question:<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being
"acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a
"relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am
usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I already
feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not mastered
advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok to stay there
until you felt completely comfortable with all elements of the class? would
that equlize participant distribution in other classes? I know a
couple of people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not consistantly
dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly have less
fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be allowed to stay in
advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the limit of their natural
flying ability or the highest level they can ascend to given their life
situation (work, practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke
with D5 pilot this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I
moved up because it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as well as
I need to, I just don't have enough time to practice". <o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I
don't know what the right approach is but we should consider the entire picture
as we look for answers. The problem may now be with the sequences at all,
but with the general feeling that a particular pilot has to move up before they
are ready. I guess that is the old advancement discussion again.<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><O:P></O:P><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Anthony<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;margin-left:148.2pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:148.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Stuart Chale <a
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net" moz-do-not-send=true><schale@optonline.net></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
11:26:02 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><br>
8 to 1 middle of the 9th.<br>
In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think the
lower classes need to be a little harder. Probably even Masters.
Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like it,
makes for good competition in that class. I do not want to come in second
in my class (and last) :)<br>
Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not move up as
quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some
integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be more fliers in
the lower classes, would the classes be more even? Don't know. Is
this what we want?<br>
<br>
Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from
their current class? There needs to be an increase in difficulty which
there is. You should have to work at the next class when moving up.<br>
<br>
Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :) They
really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the idea of
decreased space use that we have with turnaround. IMAC has the same
problem. They have a score for proper airspace use which includes a
reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt' wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
<hr size=4 width="90%" align=center>
</span></font></pre><pre style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
112.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:76.2pt;text-align:center;
border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:76.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<pre style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt' wrap=""><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
<hr size=4 width="90%" align=center>
</span></font></pre><pre style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
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