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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with Mark. I’ve been
flying intermediate for 4 years and I have no idea how many points I’ve
accumulated and I really don’t care to keep track. I finished 12th
out of 22 at the NATS this year, I was the D4 champ in 2007 and 2009. I won
half of the D4 meets this year. I certainly don’t think I’m grooving
the intermediate sequence yet. The guy who won the intermediate NATS this
year probably would have won the D4 championships this year in advanced.
So how you do at the local level is completely irrelevant in most cases.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
4:21 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Exactly,
and this is the conundrum. There is no good way to do that.
We’ve tried the sliding scale over a number of years and that really
hasn’t change anything. Those who “Top out” near the
top of a class eventually get stuck moving to the class above where they really
don’t belong.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There
seems to be lots of worry about abuse…and yet no one has ever really had
an example of any. We don’t have “abuse” in
Masters/FAI, why do we assume that we’ll have it between
Masters/Advanced…or Advanced/Sportsman? </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>At
the end of the day, if you can’t beat the guy, you have room for
improvement. I think the concern about abuse is speculation at
best. Worst case, we eliminate the points system, we have MASSIVE
sandbagging (I know Jason is probably studying the 2011 advanced pattern as we
speak…though he can fly that under the CURRENT rules since he never flew
masters) and we change the rule back.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Let’s
give “open class movement” a try.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black
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font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
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color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>J N Hiller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
4:17 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I disagree. If were
to have any kind of mandatory advancement, it needs to be based on the
individual's performance not contest placement.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>michael s harrison<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
12:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
personally don’t think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it
should be overhauled. I would recommend something on the order of 5
points for 1<sup>st</sup>, 3 for 2<sup>nd</sup> and 1 for 3<sup>rd</sup> for a
total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have to have 2
first place finishes for required advancement. That scenario would give
the pilot 1<sup>st</sup> place at 10 contests before movement is
required. If the pilot never places first, he would never be required to
advance. Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete.
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up voluntarily-most of
the time. However, a safeguard- or check and balance system is warranted,
IMO.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Mike</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
12:54 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Jim,</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>You make some
excellent points and in large part I agree with you. I don't, however, see how
your response has addressed the food for thought questions I presented. Let me
put it a different way that might make more sense.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Masters is
the "accepted" destination class, but every pattern pilot has his own
destination class based on a number of factors. In a perfect world
every individual internally defines thier destination class, and I think that
is what you are saying below. Know your abilities and life situation and fly in
the appropriate class for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What
I was suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors that
push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>At the end of
the day, it feels like I am closing the door after the horse is already
out of the barn because this issue has already been addressed, for the most
part. I think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up and
down between classes will solve those problems.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So, like the
old Saturday Night Live sketch.... Nevermind. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> J N Hiller <jnhiller@earthlink.net><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
12:58:49 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I
think the right approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow
moving back and change the advanced sequence every two years.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Like
most voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to
masters because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had gotten
a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage I use is my
contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid season the second year it
was dropping a clear indication that my interest was dropping and needed
additional challenges.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For
most of us proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick time
flying in all conditions over an extended period of time and has nothing to do
with how many times you beat someone that's having a bad day or can't get out
to practice. Some of us still have work and family commitments that take
priority.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Stay
in advanced until you feel the need for something more challenging or through
several sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons and offers
valuable experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence your comfortable with
in adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse conditions only compounds the
difficulty when moving up. For example, maintaining figure M geometry, track
and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is about twice as hard and probably 4 times as
hard as flying the 6-side outside loop on a windy day. </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As
for the pile up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in
masters. Probably half have flown with and against each other from
pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has been a
destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to FAI. In years
past FAI team selection was through a masters selection program and FAI wasn't
even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at local contests allowed them to
fly a single event / schedule only effectively reducing masters class numbers. </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
bottom line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your
ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how well
someone else flies or doesn't fly.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Sorry
about getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying pattern
and traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never gets any easier
but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other way.</span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim
Hiller </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span class=emailstyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Abdullah<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 22, 2009
7:47 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Here is a
silly question:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being
"acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a
"relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am
usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I already
feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not mastered
advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok to stay there
until you felt completely comfortable with all elements of the class? would
that equlize participant distribution in other classes? I know a
couple of people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not consistantly
dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly have less
fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be allowed to stay in
advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the limit of their natural
flying ability or the highest level they can ascend to given their life
situation (work, practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke
with D5 pilot this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I
moved up because it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as well as
I need to, I just don't have enough time to practice". </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I don't know
what the right approach is but we should consider the entire picture as we
look for answers. The problem may now be with the sequences at all, but with
the general feeling that a particular pilot has to move up before they are ready.
I guess that is the old advancement discussion again.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Anthony</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
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size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> Stuart Chale
<schale@optonline.net><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
11:26:02 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
8 to 1 middle of the 9th.<br>
In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think the
lower classes need to be a little harder. Probably even Masters.
Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like it,
makes for good competition in that class. I do not want to come in second
in my class (and last) :)<br>
Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not move up as
quickly. Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some
integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters. Would there be more fliers in
the lower classes, would the classes be more even? Don't know. Is
this what we want?<br>
<br>
Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from
their current class? There needs to be an increase in difficulty which
there is. You should have to work at the next class when moving up.<br>
<br>
Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :) They
really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the idea of
decreased space use that we have with turnaround. IMAC has the same
problem. They have a score for proper airspace use which includes a
reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
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