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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree with both of you. I flew that stuff too. Those things
were screaming bombs. Strangers would come from a mile or more away
and complain about the noise. Some made threats. I was about to
quit when the quiet stuff came along. Turnaround saved us. Whoever came
up with that was a true visionary. I believe it was Ron Chidgey that came
up with all this. He saved us. Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stuart
Chale<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 10:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I to have just read 130 messages while watching the Yankee
game. 5 to 1 in the 8th for you Yankee and Angel fans :)<br>
As far as History of sound and turnaround. Jim has it pretty much
straight. The noise issue was brought up well before turnaround was introduced.
When the noise limits were introduced we started going to larger props and soft
mounts. We were still using the short stroke high revving engines.
I switched from 11x7's to DW 11 x 9 W with a longer pipe. Same
performance, same speed but quieter. My first soft mounts were hand
made. Plates with vinyl grommets that mounted to the rails in my
Atlanta's. Dean Pappas gave me the design. Next came the long
strokes with even larger props and even quieter. The long strokes made
the switch to turnaround easier. <br>
<br>
Stuart C<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle21><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I
spent the afternoon at the field so I'm late with this reply.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle21><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In
the mid 80's I was flying an MK Arrow copy running the traditional 11-7 1/2
Rev-Up (couldn't get a D-W) on a piped OS 61-VF tuned conservatively to between
13500 – 14000 RPM on the ground. One of the clubs I belonged to closed
for a year due to a noise complaint. When it reopened as a recreational airpark
with sound restrictions (100 db @ 3M) I went out foe a check before changing
anything. I was making over 105 db and during the check I observed that both
the db and tachometer needles moved together when throttling up and down.
Adding a soft mount and lengthening the pipe around 2" reduced the sound
10 db turning a 12-9 prop. I actually gained performance, burned about half the
fuel and a glow plug would last half the summer. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle21><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>As
for noise footprint typical turnarounds were flown at full throttle 1/3 of a
mile out on a line 75 - 80m deep. As much fun as this was it was boring by
comparison. Before Expert Turnaround I had flown turnaround style in, as I
recall, Scale Aerobatics later referred to as simply IMAC.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle21><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim
H </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I'm asking for a bit of history
now. When the turnaround system was added, were't the pattern folks
flying unmuffled (or barely muffled) 2-strokes with high noise levels, not the
now (relatigvely quiet) well muffled 4 strokes? (to say nothing of the
current generation electrics?) There may be some interconnection
/correlation here. Just asking, Dave, not quarreling at all. I've
flown pattern before it was called pattern, when you made up your own sequence,
and did only those maneuvers you wanted to do. Now of coursw, we have a
well established turnaround pattern. (Which, by the way, I prefer.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Again, just asking.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Bill Glaze<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;background-attachment:scroll;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From: <a
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" title="bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</a> <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To: <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:34 PM</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>Dave L mentioned the "noise footprint", but I am
not sure that is a major reason (maybe it was?) that we went to turnaround. I
was not heavily involved in pattern at that time. However, "noise
footprint" can be divided into two parts, "noise" and
"footprint". The fact that, as Dave mentioned, some sites in the NE
are starting to fly pattern events again may be due more to the noise level
than the overall flight footprint. So, the turnaround aspect may not be the
saviour in this case as much as the noise reduction itself. Either way,
thanks can go to FAI because that is where the noise reduction
technology came from, and it filtered down to the AMA flyers. IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>All that aside, I have always felt, and expressed my
opinion, that the AMA rules and schedules should be geared towards what
is best for the sport of precision aerobatics IN THE USA. I don't think
we should pick schedules for any class, including Masters, with the major
concern of helping prepare our pilots for FAI. FAI is another class, and
if you think about that, here in the US it is almost two classes in itself:
Those that fly at national/world level, and those that don't. If someone is
really aspiring to fly at a world level, they will find the FAI class all by
themselves. The fact that we do fly the FAI class at all contests is, IMHO,
all we need to do to help them prepare for world level competitions. There is
no need for us to put an FAI flavor in the Masters sequence, unless it
will benefit pattern flying in general.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Again, this is JMHO.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bob R.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
--- On <b>Tue, 10/20/09, John Gayer <i><a href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"><jgghome@comcast.net></a></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>As I recall, the ONLY reason
AMA is now flying turnaround is because F3A went to a turnaround format. The "powersthatwere"
were concerned that our team would not have the relevant experience to
compete on the world stage. This started a process of conversion to
turnaround by including the FAI pattern and then expert turnaround in AMA
pattern contests.<br>
The pendulum has now swung the other way where the AMA pattern community,
while overly committed to turnaround, rejects the patterns, rules and
concepts of the FAI.<br>
<br>
While I no longer see a need to use the current(or past schedule as we have
already done) F3A pattern as the Masters pattern, I believe it is important
to address whatever is new and challenging in the upcoming F3A patterns and
consider introducing similar elements into the Masters pattern.<br>
<br>
At the other end of the spectrum, I believe that the Sportsman class should
have the turnaround elements removed completely. Perhaps some of the center
maneuvers could be upgraded in difficulty at the same time. The sportsman
flyer needs more focus on learning the maneuvers and where to place them.
Making them fly the box simply insures that they aree not in position to do a
proper center maneuver. This is not intended as a first step in getting rid
of turnaround but rather creating a progression in the learning process.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></pre><pre
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</pre><pre><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></pre><pre><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre><pre><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre><pre><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></b></pre><pre><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></b></pre></div>
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