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I to have just read 130 messages while watching the Yankee game. 5 to
1 in the 8th for you Yankee and Angel fans :)<br>
As far as History of sound and turnaround. Jim has it pretty much
straight. The noise issue was brought up well before turnaround was
introduced. When the noise limits were introduced we started going to
larger props and soft mounts. We were still using the short stroke
high revving engines. I switched from 11x7's to DW 11 x 9 W with a
longer pipe. Same performance, same speed but quieter. My first soft
mounts were hand made. Plates with vinyl grommets that mounted to the
rails in my Atlanta's. Dean Pappas gave me the design. Next came the
long strokes with even larger props and even quieter. The long strokes
made the switch to turnaround easier. <br>
<br>
Stuart C<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle19"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I spent
the afternoon at the field so I'm late with this reply.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle19"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">In the mid
80's I was flying an MK Arrow copy running the traditional 11-7 1/2
Rev-Up (couldn't
get a D-W) on a piped OS 61-VF tuned conservatively to between 13500 –
14000 RPM
on the ground. One of the clubs I belonged to closed for a year due to
a noise
complaint. When it reopened as a recreational airpark with sound
restrictions
(100 db @ 3M) I went out foe a check before changing anything. I was
making
over 105 db and during the check I observed that both the db and
tachometer needles
moved together when throttling up and down. Adding a soft mount and
lengthening
the pipe around 2" reduced the sound 10 db turning a 12-9 prop. I
actually
gained performance, burned about half the fuel and a glow plug would
last half
the summer. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle19"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">As for
noise footprint typical turnarounds were flown at full throttle 1/3 of
a mile
out on a line 75 - 80m deep. As much fun as this was it was boring by
comparison. Before Expert Turnaround I had flown turnaround style in,
as I
recall, Scale Aerobatics later referred to as simply IMAC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle19"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jim H <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle19"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October
20, 2009
2:55 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">I'm asking
for a bit of history now. When the turnaround system was added, were't
the pattern folks flying unmuffled (or barely muffled) 2-strokes with
high
noise levels, not the now (relatigvely quiet) well muffled 4 strokes?
(to
say nothing of the current generation electrics?) There may be some
interconnection /correlation here. Just asking, Dave, not quarreling
at
all. I've flown pattern before it was called pattern, when you made up
your own sequence, and did only those maneuvers you wanted to do. Now
of
coursw, we have a well established turnaround pattern. (Which, by
the way, I prefer.)</span></font><font color="black"><span
style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Again, just
asking.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Bill Glaze</span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 40.2pt;"><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; margin-left: 40.2pt; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; font-weight: bold;">
<div style="">From:<font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
title="bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</a> </span></font></div>
<font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 40.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; font-weight: bold;">To:</span></font></b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</span></font><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 40.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></font></b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> Tuesday,
October 20,
2009 2:34 PM</span></font><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 40.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><b><font color="black" face="Arial"
size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></font></b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-left: 40.2pt;"><b><font
color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></font></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Dave L mentioned
the "noise footprint", but I am not sure that is a major reason (maybe
it was?) that we went to turnaround. I was not heavily involved in
pattern at that time. However, "noise footprint" can be divided into
two parts, "noise" and "footprint". The fact that, as Dave mentioned,
some sites in the NE are starting to fly pattern events again may be
due more to the noise level than the overall flight footprint. So, the
turnaround aspect may not be the saviour in this case as much as the
noise reduction itself. Either way, thanks can go to FAI because that
is where the noise reduction technology came from, and it filtered down
to the AMA flyers. IMHO.</span></font><font color="black"><span
style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"> </span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">All that aside,
I have always felt, and expressed my opinion, that the AMA rules and
schedules should be geared towards what is best for the sport of
precision aerobatics IN THE USA. I don't think we should pick schedules
for any class, including Masters, with the major concern of helping
prepare our pilots for FAI. FAI is another class, and if you think
about that, here in the US it is almost two classes in itself: Those
that fly at national/world level, and those that don't. If someone is
really aspiring to fly at a world level, they will find the FAI class
all by themselves. The fact that we do fly the FAI class at all
contests is, IMHO, all we need to do to help them prepare for world
level competitions. There is no need for us to put an FAI flavor in the
Masters sequence, unless it will benefit pattern flying in general.</span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"> </span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Again, this is
JMHO.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"> </span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Bob R.</span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"><br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Tue, 10/20/09, John Gayer <i><span
style="font-style: italic;"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"><jgghome@comcast.net></a></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in; margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 4.2pt;"><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<div id="yiv1158923941">As I recall, the ONLY reason AMA is now
flying turnaround is because F3A went to a turnaround format. The
"powersthatwere" were concerned that our team would not have the
relevant experience to compete on the world stage. This started a
process of conversion to turnaround by including the FAI pattern and
then expert turnaround in AMA pattern contests.<br>
The pendulum has now swung the other way where the AMA pattern
community, while overly committed to turnaround, rejects the patterns,
rules and concepts of the FAI.<br>
<br>
While I no longer see a need to use the current(or past schedule as we
have already done) F3A pattern as the Masters pattern, I believe it is
important to address whatever is new and challenging in the upcoming
F3A patterns and consider introducing similar elements into the Masters
pattern.<br>
<br>
At the other end of the spectrum, I believe that the Sportsman class
should have the turnaround elements removed completely. Perhaps some of
the center maneuvers could be upgraded in difficulty at the same time.
The sportsman flyer needs more focus on learning the maneuvers and
where to place them. Making them fly the box simply insures that they
aree not in position to do a proper center maneuver. This is not
intended as a first step in getting rid of turnaround but rather
creating a progression in the learning process.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
<br style="">
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<pre wrap=""><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2">
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