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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The late George Leu (West Jersey
Radio Flyers and M.A.N. “scale techniques” columnist ) was an NSRCA
V.P. at the time and reportedly was part of the push to
move pattern towards turnaround.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 21, 2009
8:35 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">'General
pattern discussion'</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>I believe it was Ron Chidgey that came up with all this.
He saved us. Mike”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>That was my
recollection as well. Pappas? Matt? Earl?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>michael s <st1:place w:st="on">harrison</st1:place><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 21, 2009
8:26 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">'General
pattern discussion'</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I agree with both of
you. I flew that stuff too. Those things were screaming bombs. Strangers
would come from a mile or more away and complain about the noise. Some
made threats. I was about to quit when the quiet stuff came along.
Turnaround saved us. Whoever came up with that was a true visionary.
I believe it was Ron Chidgey that came up with all this. He saved us.
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Stuart Chale<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
10:07 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I to have just read 130 messages while watching the
Yankee game. 5 to 1 in the 8th for you Yankee and Angel fans :)<br>
As far as History of sound and turnaround. Jim has it pretty much
straight. The noise issue was brought up well before turnaround was
introduced. When the noise limits were introduced we started going to
larger props and soft mounts. We were still using the short stroke high
revving engines. I switched from 11x7's to DW 11 x 9 W with a longer
pipe. Same performance, same speed but quieter. My first soft
mounts were hand made. Plates with vinyl grommets that mounted to the
rails in my <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Atlanta</st1:City></st1:place>'s.
Dean Pappas gave me the design. Next came the long strokes with even
larger props and even quieter. The long strokes made the switch to
turnaround easier. <br>
<br>
Stuart C<br>
<br>
J N Hiller wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I spent the afternoon at the field so I'm late with
this reply.</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>In the mid 80's I was flying an MK Arrow copy running
the traditional 11-7 1/2 Rev-Up (couldn't get a D-W) on a piped OS 61-VF tuned
conservatively to between 13500 – 14000 RPM on the ground. One of the
clubs I belonged to closed for a year due to a noise complaint. When it
reopened as a recreational airpark with sound restrictions (100 db @ 3M) I went
out foe a check before changing anything. I was making over 105 db and during
the check I observed that both the db and tachometer needles moved together
when throttling up and down. Adding a soft mount and lengthening the pipe
around 2" reduced the sound 10 db turning a 12-9 prop. I actually gained
performance, burned about half the fuel and a glow plug would last half the
summer. </span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>As for noise footprint typical turnarounds were flown
at full throttle 1/3 of a mile out on a line 75 - 80m deep. As much fun as this
was it was boring by comparison. Before Expert Turnaround I had flown
turnaround style in, as I recall, Scale Aerobatics later referred to as simply
IMAC.</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim H </span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:55 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm asking for a bit of
history now. When the turnaround system was added, were't the pattern
folks flying unmuffled (or barely muffled) 2-strokes with high noise levels,
not the now (relatigvely quiet) well muffled 4 strokes? (to say nothing
of the current generation electrics?) There may be some interconnection
/correlation here. Just asking, Dave, not quarreling at all. I've
flown pattern before it was called pattern, when you made up your own sequence,
and did only those maneuvers you wanted to do. Now of coursw, we have a
well established turnaround pattern. (Which, by the way, I prefer.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Again, just asking.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bill Glaze<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original
Message ----- </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;background-position-x:0%;
background-position-y:50%;background-attachment:scroll'><b><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
font-weight:bold'>From: <a href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
title="bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:34 PM</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dave L mentioned the "noise footprint",
but I am not sure that is a major reason (maybe it was?) that we went to
turnaround. I was not heavily involved in pattern at that time. However,
"noise footprint" can be divided into two parts, "noise"
and "footprint". The fact that, as Dave mentioned, some sites in
the NE are starting to fly pattern events again may be due more to the noise
level than the overall flight footprint. So, the turnaround aspect may not be
the saviour in this case as much as the noise reduction itself. Either way,
thanks can go to FAI because that is where the noise reduction
technology came from, and it filtered down to the AMA flyers. IMHO.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>All that aside, I have always felt, and expressed my
opinion, that the AMA rules and schedules should be geared towards what
is best for the sport of precision aerobatics IN THE USA. I don't think
we should pick schedules for any class, including Masters, with the major
concern of helping prepare our pilots for FAI. FAI is another class, and
if you think about that, here in the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">US</st1:country-region></st1:place> it is almost two classes in
itself: Those that fly at national/world level, and those that don't. If
someone is really aspiring to fly at a world level, they will find the FAI
class all by themselves. The fact that we do fly the FAI class at all
contests is, IMHO, all we need to do to help them prepare for world level
competitions. There is no need for us to put an FAI flavor in the
Masters sequence, unless it will benefit pattern flying in general.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Again, this is JMHO.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bob R.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Tue, 10/20/09, John Gayer <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><a href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"><jgghome@comcast.net></a></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div id=yiv1158923941>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>As I recall, the ONLY
reason AMA is now flying turnaround is because F3A went to a turnaround
format. The "powersthatwere" were concerned that our team would not
have the relevant experience to compete on the world stage. This started a
process of conversion to turnaround by including the FAI pattern and then
expert turnaround in AMA pattern contests.<br>
The pendulum has now swung the other way where the AMA pattern community,
while overly committed to turnaround, rejects the patterns, rules and
concepts of the FAI.<br>
<br>
While I no longer see a need to use the current(or past schedule as we have
already done) F3A pattern as the Masters pattern, I believe it is important
to address whatever is new and challenging in the upcoming F3A patterns and
consider introducing similar elements into the Masters pattern.<br>
<br>
At the other end of the spectrum, I believe that the Sportsman class should
have the turnaround elements removed completely. Perhaps some of the center
maneuvers could be upgraded in difficulty at the same time. The sportsman
flyer needs more focus on learning the maneuvers and where to place them. Making
them fly the box simply insures that they aree not in position to do a proper
center maneuver. This is not intended as a first step in getting rid of
turnaround but rather creating a progression in the learning process.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:40.2pt'><b><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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