<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>Absolutely. I've written down several names already. <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Oct 20, 2009, at 3:02 PM, "Dave" <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Yes!! Sounds like another volunteer for
the next cycle!!!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Derek, can we start compiling a list of
new volunteers?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><br>
Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Richard Lewis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
5:17 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hmmmm.......Who
is "they"......shouldn't it be "we"......as I
stated, this particular issue was not chosen by me as a battle to
fight in this go round of sequence development, but it sounds like you may
be just the right guy to bear the cross on the issue in the next
rules cycle....:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Richard<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> RON
HANSEN <<a href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">rcpilot@wowway.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
3:59:08 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">Then they should consider adjusting the sequence development
guidlines.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">As other have mentioned. The hardest maneuver in sportsman
is the cuban eight - cobra combo. Likewise, the stall turn - top hat in
intermediate. Both were ill conceived. The sequence committee
should focus focus on these issues and put less emphasis on individual
maneuvers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">I'll just keep pissin' in the wind:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Richard Lewis" <<a href="mailto:humptybump@sbcglobal.net">humptybump@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:17:37 PM GMT -05:00 <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>/<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I made the same point a while back
regarding coordinated rolls, just before I "volunteered" <grin>
to be on the sequence committee. I also got the same hair on fire
repsonses from some of the list regulars...sometimes I think we lose sight
of how many pattern fliers are out there that aren't on this list or rarely
contribute to the list and it is easy to confuse the opinions of a narrow
range of vocal list regulars with the overall sentiments of pattern fliers at
large.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Four point rolls and slow rolls are much
better teaching tools than blazing through 2 or 3 consecutive
rolls. I use my Dad as an example....his head literally does
explode at contests when flying Sportsman in front of judges and I would much
rather coach him through learning to use rudder in a 4 point roll than telling
him to nose it up a litlte, jam on the elevator and try to give a bit of down
at the right time in 2 consecutive rolls. Heck I've even seen him try 4
point rolls on his own when sport flying just for fun.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Unfortunately they are not allowed in the
sequence development guidelines for intermediate that are being used today to
steer the sequence development process and I was not going to be the
crusader that challenged this in the sequence contruction guidelines in
this round of sequence development. I think that my contributions to the
group brought a fresh set of opinions and eyes to the process and I hope that
the sequences that are presented will be approached with an open mind from
the armchair quarterback club.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Richard Lewis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black"> RON HANSEN
<<a href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">rcpilot@wowway.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:39:36 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">Mark you just supported my point. Sean is learning to use elevator
on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up. I bet most
sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of
that). I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without
using rudder. I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2
rolls. I believe this is bad advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in
intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder
before moving up. Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated
rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would
lessen the gap between classes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">I've never used crack. Hg yes everyday twice a day:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a></a><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Ron?? You’re
smokin’ crack again. STOP that… Or wait, was that
playing with Mercury…”No ill effects”…</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">You’ve been flying
Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving out of it. On
the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman. Adding point
roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their heads
explode. I’m just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well
with elevator and not pitch up 20deg before starting. We’ll get that down
in Sportsman, but we’ll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the
roll in a ½ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Rolling with rudder
is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re cleaning up the hardward
in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced. </span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="4" color="#76923c" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold">Mark Atwood</span></font></b><font size="4" color="navy"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:navy"><br>
</span></font><font size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#1F497D">President<br>
</span></font><b><i><font size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">Paragon Consulting</span></font></i></b><font size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><font size="2" color="#548dd4" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#548DD4"><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a></span></font></u><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#76923c" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold">IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. </span></font></b><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>RON HANSEN<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:37 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>; General
pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black">When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult
what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually. For an
example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing
the same. I agree that this can be taken to extremes. For example,
I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this
will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).
Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some
more complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge. These
or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="2" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "John Pavlick" <<a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is
a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box
maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a
Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box
exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as
Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to
happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another
moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines
smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at
least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box
exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman
doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line?
With box exits of course. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">As a few people have said - and I say this all the
time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">judged</font></i></em> on. This doesn't mean that you
can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you
guys just go to the field and fly <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">your</font></i></em>
sequence over and over <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">every</font></i></em>
time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important.
The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat
extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of
skills. It's nearly impossible to make each progression seamless. You <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">must </font></i></em>learn at least some new skills on
your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow
magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't.
VBG<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">John Pavlick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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--- On <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <i><span style="font-style:italic"><<a href="mailto:pcosky@comcast.net">pcosky@comcast.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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From: Pete Cosky <<a href="mailto:pcosky@comcast.net">pcosky@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">I partially agree with your last post but those
building blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out
of Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son
until this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly
but at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned
those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened
in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and
probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do,
then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go
and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays
a good foundation for the progression in the classes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
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