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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Mark I
absolutely agree that adding a new class would excessively burden most local
contests. A CD option to split an overloaded masters class (A & B groups) is
probably a more reasonable approach.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This was
my first year in masters and I have much to learn but I wasn't interested in
flying the current advanced schedule any more. I would rather finish last flying
the more challenging sequence. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
current advanced doesn't come close to preparing one to fly masters. Changing
the schedule every two years and including some of the features required in
masters would help keep in interesting and better prepare a person for the move
to masters.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It may
sound strange but I've never had to fly coordinated left rolls until now, which
I've been working on this fall. I likewise hadn't had to fly much inverted and few
if any inverted exits. As for inverted 4-points I'm lucky I didn't wrong rudder
it into the ground the first few times I tried it. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Getting
through a flight without blowing the box or posting a zero is a pretty good
flight and I'm much more interested in my 5 or 6 round raw score average than
where I place, even when I was winning in advanced. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I still
have much to learn and look forward to the challenges ahead. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle37><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 19, 2009
12:32 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Allowing
people to move back without issue would be a big part of this for several
reasons. 1) people climb to masters…but often can’t sustain that level of
competition. Either life/age/ability gets in the way and instead of
moving back, they either hang in there in the bottom or even lower middle of
the pack, or they quit. Both are bad. 2) People jump too soon and
realize that it’s less the maneuvers, than the brutal level of the competition
that should have kept them in Advanced… Again, they can’t move. 3)
Sequences change and the patterns march forward in difficulty, and often we don’t
keep up. Allowing movement would let people make that shift.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Adding
a new class would kill contests financially and logistically. It might
have been possible in the era of 50 person contests but when the norm is 18-25,
it’s just not practical. Also, where is the fun in competing in groups of
3?? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Joe Lachowski<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 19, 2009
3:36 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Discussion List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>I
think one of the biggest problems we face right now is the void in
Advanced. The Advanced sequence this time around was made just a tad more
difficult and some of us in the sequence committee are all for
changing Advanced every two years along with Masters. In my opinion, some
are moving up to Masters too quick. Changing Advanced more frequently along
with changing the advancement requirements might just be the ticket for keeping
guys in Advanced a little longer. Hopefully, we can build up this class to
where it should be which should increase the judging pool at local
contests. I am also for allowing guys to move back to Advanced when the new
sequences come into use.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>From:
jnhiller@earthlink.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:57:15 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=ecxemailstyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>You know there was some resistance to splitting masters into two
groups "A" & "B" so they could judge each other when a
contest was overloaded with masters fliers. I don't see two FAI classes as
being much different. Adding an 'Expert" class also addresses the judging
overload. There may also be some concern that the ever increasing difficulty in
FAI may encourage some people to fly masters, adding to the judge imbalance.</span></font></span><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=ecxemailstyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I'm a new guy in masters and will fly or stumble through whatever
is decided on. I just want to point out that there are other ways to deal with
contest judge imbalances. </span></font></span><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=ecxemailstyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Jim</span></font></span><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=ecxemailstyle22><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font></span><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 19, 2009
9:07 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
for one have gotten VERY poor feedback from our masters flyers on this.
It makes sense to me, and in a vacuum I would certainly vote for it, but alas,
I</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>’</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>m not. Given the current sentiment on this in
D3(AMA D3 that is, not NSRCA) it would be a resounding no vote without removing
the integrated rolling maneuvers at a minimum.</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Those
maneuvers alone keep many from moving up to FAI, in addition to having to learn
2 sequences. I don</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>’</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>t know what the
response would be to a Masters </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>FAI LITE</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'> sequence where you simply removed the integrated roll from the
Figure M and maybe replaced the Loop w/8pt with an avalanche or such.
But I know I</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>’</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>ll get an ear full of </span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>Nays</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> if there</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>’</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>s a proposal for straight FAI in masters.</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 19, 2009
11:57 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Tom Miller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It
seems to me that adopting the FAI </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>P</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'> schedule for the Masters class with </span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>changes</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> is not the way to
go. A better alternative IMO is to fly FAI P schedule under FAI rules as
a separate class. Those of us with some age remember when this was done years
ago as </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>D</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> expert and </span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>D</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Novice classes. As
I remember AMA class </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
color:#1F497D'>“</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>D</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>”</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'> was the FAI event back then. This would have the
advantages of two classes flying under the same rules and the benefits of more flyers/judges
familiar with the same rules and maneuvers. It would also eliminate the work
involved in coming up with a new Masters sequence every three or so years as a
new schedule would be automatically be invoked FAI changed. I</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";color:#1F497D'>’</span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>d like to see a proposal for this change submitted to the
Contest Board.</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave
Burton </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 19, 2009
11:29 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hi
Lance,</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Just to clarify. I
am not the only one making this proposal. Don Ramsey and Charlie
Rock helped me to put it together. I am going to try to respond to
your questions below. Please read below in <strong><b>bold. </b></strong>Thanks
for bringing this discussion to the list. <br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude@tx.rr.com><br>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:51:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I know
official discussion hasn't started but this list is one of the good vetting
forums. Vince proposed Masters flying FAI P, which is clear <strong><b>(this
is for sure the most important statement)</b></strong>, but if the logic behind
the proposal as written causes confusion it may make a less convincing
case. <strong><b>Good point. We assumed that was easy for someone
that is very familiar to pattern to digest the intent of the proposal.
Your conclusions are correct. We are assuming that the current procedures
we use to design the Master schedule are not changed. We adopt
the current FAI P schedule with the appropriate changes to suit
the Master class. This is the reason why we didn't try to discuss
other details. </b></strong>For example, it says "there is an
evident pile up f pilots in the Masters class" but never clearly states
how flying the same sequence would change that. He may be implying that
people will more freely move between classes to balance the lines because they
are flying a similar sequence but the sequences may not be identical and the
judging rules are not identical. <strong><b>Correct. You
actually saw what happened in Tulsa this year. There were 10 pilots
in Masters and you decided to divide the group in two and five flew
Masters and five flew FAI. This also happened already in other local
contest around KC. It happens at Fort Scott contest also. Pilots
will be more willing to do this we fly the same schedule. </b></strong>At
another point it says "This will make judging of both classes very
accurate" but doesn't address the obvious differences in judging criteria
between AMA and FAI, which is the current burden that Masters and FAI pilots
currently bear when the fly one class and judge the other.<strong><b> I am sure
that we will agree that it will be a lot easier to deal with these differences
if we fly the same schedules. The proposal intent is not to address the
differences in judging criteria between AMA and FAI. I believe that
it will become natural as we start to fly the same schedule and the
differences will go away with time. </b></strong>Finally, there is
no exact wording proposed on the form where it is expected, but later in the
logic it refers to the idea of replacing some FAI maneuvers where
appropriate. <strong><b>We are assuming that the current procedure to
design the schedules is still in place. The committee will
check the current FAI P schedule and proposed a final one with the changes to
make it suitable for Masters. For example, P11 the only portion I will
change is the integrated half loop on the figure M. I will
suggest something like 2 of 4 or 1/2 roll on bottom to replace the
integrated 1/2 roll. I believe that all other maneuvers are
suitable for Masters. </b></strong>Without exact wording, its not
clear how this is done, or if the maneuver descriptions will be re-written in
the AMA rules, or referenced to the FAI descriptions like the
sequence. <strong><b>The committee will decide whatever is
appropriate. If they feel that the FAI descriptions are
appropiate we could use it as is.</b></strong> Oh, and how does AMA
deal with the fact that FAI changes schedules in odd years?<strong><b> We
will need to follow FAI schedule. I think that this is very
possible and should not be a problem. </b></strong></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>My
intent is simply to point out aspects that detract from it's
thoroughness. I do not yet have a stance on the issue.<strong><b> We
put this together just taking at the 2008 Nats. I remember that I have to
judge FAI and I never had the chance to judge FAI before the Nats. I was
trying to study the FAI schedule at the same time that I was trying to fly my
own contest. This is clearly an additional pressure on the
contestant. If this proposal pass it will make our life easier at the
local contest and when we judging at the Nats or any other contest. Also,
clearly will make the judging level very high because Masters and FAI pilots
will be very familiar with the schedules we fly and the details requires to
judge each of the maneuvers. Finally, the balance in local contest
will be easier to fix since we will more willing to fly FAI when
required. </b></strong></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>--Lance</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
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