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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’d like to hear from the Sportsman. Do
you want a 4 point in Intermediate, or is Intermediate intimidating enough? Consider
going from a partial turnaround sequence to a full turnaround sequence? How
about in a 20 mph blow in crosswind? Are you ready to trim your plane for
knife edge flight?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>krishlan fitzsimmons<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
7:48 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I think a 4 point would be great for intermediate. It gets you ready
for a slow roll in advanced as it helps you learn the rudder. You most likely
aren't going to learn to roll comfortably with rudder in intermediate without
being forced to learn it. I didn't use rudder till advanced, as that's when I
was forced to learn it. <br>
<br>
IMO, sportsman is the entry class. Exit the box. That's fine. Could help with
the nerves. Intermediate should start to learn rudder, and rudder corrections.
Not master them, but start to learn them. A 4 point could help with this.
Advanced is where you master rudder corrections (inverted and upright) which
sets you up nicely for masters. Masters should be somewhat difficult as it is a
destination class. There should be a or some integrated rolling elements (point
of continuous). You would find less people in Masters if they weren't ready for
it. And it would make the move to FAI much easier. <br>
<br>
Back to painting...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf" face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF;font-weight:
bold'>Chris </span></font></i></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
"Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tue, October 20, 2009
2:22:06 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>No, I’ll agree to
disagree. I think you begin using roll with rudder as you’re LEAVING
intermediate. Putting in a slow roll would require you to use it upon
entry into that class which means you would need to be doing it at the end of
sportsman which is almost ridiculous. When you’re rolling
comfortably with rudder, it’s time for Advanced and point and slow rolls.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Mark
Atwood</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130</span></font></st1:Street><font
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color:black'>, <st1:City w:st="on">Cleveland</st1:City> <st1:State
w:st="on">Ohio</st1:State>, <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">44124</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:address><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color="#1351f3" face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
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color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
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href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RON HANSEN<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
3:40 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Mark you just supported my point. Sean is learning to use
elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up. I bet
most sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of
that). I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without
using rudder. I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2
rolls. I believe this is bad advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in
intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder
before moving up. Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more
complicated rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than
masters) would lessen the gap between classes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>I've never used crack. Hg yes everyday twice a day:)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick@idseng.com<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Ron?? You’re
smokin’ crack again. STOP that… Or wait, was that
playing with Mercury…”No ill effects”…</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>You’ve been flying
Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving out of it. On
the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman. Adding point
roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their heads explode.
I’m just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator and not
pitch up 20deg before starting. We’ll get that down in Sportsman, but
we’ll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ˝
reverse Cuban for Intermediate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Rolling with rudder
is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re cleaning up the hardward
in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color="#76923c" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b><font
size=4 color=navy><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:navy'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:#1F497D'>President<br>
</span></font><b><i><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Paragon Consulting</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><font size=2 color="#548dd4" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#548DD4'>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</span></font></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#76923c" face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold'>IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RON HANSEN<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:37 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> jpavlick@idseng.com; General
pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult
what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually. For an
example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing
the same. I agree that this can be taken to extremes. For example,
I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this
will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).
Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some
more complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge. These
or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick@idseng.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is
a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box
maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a
Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box
exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as
Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to
happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another
moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines
smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at
least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box
exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman
doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line?
With box exits of course. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As a few people have said - and I say this all the
time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">judged</font></i></em> on. This doesn't mean that you
can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you
guys just go to the field and fly <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">your</font></i></em>
sequence over and over <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">every</font></i></em>
time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important.
The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat
extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of
skills. It's nearly impossible to make each progression seamless. You <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">must </font></i></em>learn at least some new skills on
your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow
magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't.
VBG<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><pcosky@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255)'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Pete Cosky <pcosky@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv444165611>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I partially agree with your last post but those building
blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of
Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son until
this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but
at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned
those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened
in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and
probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do,
then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go
and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays
a good foundation for the progression in the classes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
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<p><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Internal Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09
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<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09
06:19:00</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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