<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'><DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<P>You may be right as it relates to intermediate. I just think if we add a little more emphasis on rolling in advanced it won't be such a big jump to masters. Masters after all is all about rolling.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>I'm sure the sequence development guidlines address the questions of what minimum requirements must a pilot meet in order to advance to the next level. For example, should an advanced pilot be able to roll relatively well in both directions before advancing. I say yes others may say no. I know many of the lower tier masters pilots can't roll well in both directions. Those who agree with me would be inclinded to add rolling manuevers that force the pilot to roll in both directions.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>I'm still learning to fly in the wind and roll with some confidence. I'm certainly getting better but I don't feel like I'm to the point where moving to advanced is a no brainer.</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:22:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR><BR></P>
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">No, I’ll agree to disagree. I think you begin using roll with rudder as you’re LEAVING intermediate. Putting in a slow roll would require you to use it upon entry into that class which means you would need to be doing it at the end of sportsman which is almost ridiculous. When you’re rolling comfortably with rudder, it’s time for Advanced and point and slow rolls. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mark Atwood</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Paragon Consulting, Inc.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">|</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> President</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">|</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> Fax: 440.684.3102</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target=_blank>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A> </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">|</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>RON HANSEN<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mark you just supported my point. Sean is learning to use elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up. I bet most sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of that). I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without using rudder. I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2 rolls. I believe this is bad advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder before moving up. Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would lessen the gap between classes.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've never used crack. Hg yes everyday twice a day:)</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick@idseng.com<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Ron?? You’re smokin’ crack again. STOP that… Or wait, was that playing with Mercury…”No ill effects”…</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You’ve been flying Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving out of it. On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman. Adding point roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their heads explode. I’m just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator and not pitch up 20deg before starting. We’ll get that down in Sportsman, but we’ll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ½ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Rolling with rudder is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re cleaning up the hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: #76923c; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Mark Atwood</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">President<BR></SPAN><B><I><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Paragon Consulting</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U><SPAN style="COLOR: #548dd4; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</SPAN></U><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: #76923c; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">IT Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. </SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>RON HANSEN<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B> jpavlick@idseng.com; General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually. For an example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing the same. I agree that this can be taken to extremes. For example, I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator). Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some more complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge. These or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick@idseng.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line? With box exits of course. </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>As a few people have said - and I say this all the time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are <EM>judged</EM> on. This doesn't mean that you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you guys just go to the field and fly <EM>your</EM> sequence over and over <EM>every</EM> time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important. The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of skills. It's nearly impossible to make each progression seamless. You <EM>must </EM>learn at least some new skills on your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't. VBG</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <I><pcosky@comcast.net></I></B> wrote:</P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><BR>From: Pete Cosky <pcosky@comcast.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM</P>
<DIV id=yiv444165611>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I partially agree with your last post but those building blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son until this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do, then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays a good foundation for the progression in the classes.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Internal Virus Database is out of date.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Internal Virus Database is out of date.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00</SPAN></P></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></div></body></html>