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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe I must take credit for that Tony, thanks for your
opinion! (Where were you five years ago when it was being discussed?
We sure could have used your expertise then!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I looked for the original email thread to pinpoint exactly where
that sequence of maneuvers came from but came up empty (I’m pretty sure it
was me.) Regardless, it was discussed/approved by the committee (I think
there were four of us + chair TN working on 402) and then voted on by the
membership so really all ACTIVE members had a part in it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Now you know…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Scott Smith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>District 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony
Frackowiak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 19, 2009 9:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Is it not true that changes to the sequences are part of the
new rules proposals that are supposed to be submitted now? If so, then they
should be posted ASAP so that everyone can see them and provide input to their
contest board member. And at this time of the year many will not be able to
test fly them to see what they think!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>BTW, who put in Intermediate the upwind stall turn with a
downwind top hat? Worst sequence of maneuvers I've ever seen.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tony<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Oct 19, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Joe Lachowski wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Derek asked for volunteers quite some time ago. There were not a
lot of volunteers. The sequences will be published in the K-factor and
elsewhere. When, I do not know. As soon as we are sure the Aresti diagrams
that Tom Miller is putting together are correct for both directions, the
sequences will be forwarded to Derek. Dave Lockhart, Richard Lewis, Verne
Koester, Bill Glaze and myself have been the primary people involved. We
have test flown them and had some others try them out for input, as well. I'm
sure everyone won't be totally happy with some of the stuff. So what else is
new.<g><br>
<br>
A short and long Masters sequence was also put together because it was
not known which way we were heading. Personally, I like the longer
sequence we put together. We rearranged the existing Sportsman sequence to flow
better, gave the Intermediate guys something
new, and hopefully addressed the gripes( ie inverted exits
and entrys) the Advanced guys have about their sequence that we had heard
over the last year or so. I'm sure Derek will chime in on what has transpired.
Just be patient guys.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
From:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:frackowiak@sbcglobal.net">frackowiak@sbcglobal.net</a><br>
To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:10:15 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
<br>
Same here. I have heard nothing and seen nothing about changes to any of the
AMA sequences. BTW, who is on the "Sequence Committee"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Tony Frackowiak<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:15 PM, Joe Dunnaway wrote<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>How about letting the rest of us know what the sequences
are. I would like to see them.<br>
<br>
Joe Dunnaway<br>
<br>
Bill Glaze wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Dave:</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I posted and announced the presence of all the sequences at the
contests in Winston, (April and Oct.) and they were widely looked at. I
told the folks that Joe had included both a long and short Masters, and that
he, personally preferred the long, but that the Sequence Committee was looking
for input. So, they haven't been a secret inD2, anyway.</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Bill Glaze</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Member, Sequence Committee.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
title="burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>To:</span></b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Monday,
October 19, 2009 3:37 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Where are all the new sequences for 2011 published for us to
review? I haven’t seen them. Don’t they have to be submitted as
rules proposals for the Contest Board? I hope the Masters sequence
adopted is shorter than the one we are flying now. Also eliminating judging
takeoff and landing would give judges a little more of a break between flyers.
Spending most of my time at a contest judging a large contingent of Masters
flyers is not my idea of fun anymore.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-bottom-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-top-color:initial;
border-right-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span></b>Joe Lachowski<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>Monday, October
19, 2009 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>NSRCA Discussion
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>If we go this route, I for one will definitely quit.<br>
<br>
We already have new sequences designed for 2011 for all the classes.
And we have been adopting a maneuver here and there from
the FAI sequences. They will be presented in the K-factor sometime in the
future. There are even two different sequences put together for Masters. One is
the traditional length and the other is the same length as FAI.<br>
<br>
The new FAI sequence for next year is a real
good example not to flat out adopt a P sequence as it is.<br>
</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a><br>
To:<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:56:40 -0400<br>
CC:<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:tom_babs@bellsouth.net">tom_babs@bellsouth.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It seems to me that adopting the FAI “P” schedule
for the Masters class with “changes” is not the way to go. A better
alternative IMO is to fly FAI P schedule under FAI rules as a separate
class. Those of us with some age remember when this was done years ago as
“D” expert and “D” Novice classes. As I remember AMA
class “D” was the FAI event back then. This would have the
advantages of two classes flying under the same rules and the benefits of more
flyers/judges familiar with the same rules and maneuvers. It would also
eliminate the work involved in coming up with a new Masters sequence every
three or so years as a new schedule would be automatically be invoked FAI
changed. I’d like to see a proposal for this change submitted to the
Contest Board.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-bottom-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-top-color:initial;
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span></b>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>Monday, October
19, 2009 11:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>General pattern
discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi Lance,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Just to clarify. I am not the only one making this
proposal. Don Ramsey and Charlie Rock helped me to put it
together. I am going to try to respond to your questions below.
Please read below in<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>bold. </span></strong><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space><b> </b></span>Thanks for bringing this
discussion to the list. <span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Lance Van Nostrand"<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com"><patterndude@tx.rr.com></a><br>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List"<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:51:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I know official discussion hasn't started but this list is one of
the good vetting forums. Vince proposed Masters flying FAI P, which is
clear<span class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(this is for sure the most important
statement)</span></strong>, but if the logic behind the proposal as written
causes confusion it may make a less convincing case. <span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><strong><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>Good point. We assumed that was easy for someone
that is very familiar to pattern to digest the intent of the proposal.
Your conclusions are correct. We are assuming that the current procedures
we use to design the Master schedule are not changed. We adopt
the current FAI P schedule with the appropriate changes to suit
the Master class. This is the reason why we didn't try to discuss
other details. </span></strong>For example, it says "there is
an evident pile up f pilots in the Masters class" but never clearly states
how flying the same sequence would change that. He may be implying that
people will more freely move between classes to balance the lines because they
are flying a similar sequence but the sequences may not be identical and the
judging rules are not identical. <strong><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>Correct. You actually saw what happened in Tulsa
this year. There were 10 pilots in Masters and you decided to divide
the group in two and five flew Masters and five flew FAI. This
also happened already in other local contest around KC. It happens at
Fort Scott contest also. Pilots will be more willing to do this we
fly the same schedule. </span></strong><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space><b> </b></span>At another point it says
"This will make judging of both classes very accurate" but doesn't
address the obvious differences in judging criteria between AMA and FAI, which
is the current burden that Masters and FAI pilots currently bear when the fly
one class and judge the other.<span class=ecxapple-converted-space><b> </b></span><strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I am sure that we will agree that it
will be a lot easier to deal with these differences if we fly the same
schedules. The proposal intent is not to address the differences in
judging criteria between AMA and FAI. I believe that it will become
natural as we start to fly the same schedule and the differences will
go away with time. </span></strong>Finally, there is no exact
wording proposed on the form where it is expected, but later in the logic it
refers to the idea of replacing some FAI maneuvers where appropriate. <span
class=ecxapple-converted-space> </span><strong><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>We are assuming that the current procedure to design
the schedules is still in place. The committee will check the
current FAI P schedule and proposed a final one with the changes to make it
suitable for Masters. For example, P11 the only portion I will change is
the integrated half loop on the figure M. I will suggest something
like 2 of 4 or 1/2 roll on bottom to replace the integrated 1/2 roll. I
believe that all other maneuvers are suitable for Masters. </span></strong><span
class=ecxapple-converted-space><b> </b></span>Without exact wording, its
not clear how this is done, or if the maneuver descriptions will be re-written
in the AMA rules, or referenced to the FAI descriptions like the
sequence. <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
committee will decide whatever is appropriate. If they feel that the FAI
descriptions are appropiate we could use it as is.</span></strong>
Oh, and how does AMA deal with the fact that FAI changes schedules in odd
years?<strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> We will
need to follow FAI schedule. I think that this is very possible
and should not be a problem. </span></strong></span><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>My intent is simply to point out aspects that detract from it's
thoroughness. I do not yet have a stance on the issue.<strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> We put this together just
taking at the 2008 Nats. I remember that I have to judge FAI and I never
had the chance to judge FAI before the Nats. I was trying to study the
FAI schedule at the same time that I was trying to fly my own contest.
This is clearly an additional pressure on the contestant. If this
proposal pass it will make our life easier at the local contest and when
we judging at the Nats or any other contest. Also, clearly will make the
judging level very high because Masters and FAI pilots will be very familiar
with the schedules we fly and the details requires to judge each of the
maneuvers. Finally, the balance in local contest will be easier to
fix since we will more willing to fly FAI when required.
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>--Lance</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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