<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =
"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828"><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ecxmsonormal, li.ecxmsonormal, div.ecxmsonormal
{mso-style-name:ecxmsonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ecxmsochpdefault, li.ecxmsochpdefault, div.ecxmsochpdefault
{mso-style-name:ecxmsochpdefault;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.ecxmsohyperlink
{mso-style-name:ecxmsohyperlink;}
span.ecxmsohyperlinkfollowed
{mso-style-name:ecxmsohyperlinkfollowed;}
span.ecxemailstyle19
{mso-style-name:ecxemailstyle19;}
p.ecxmsonormal1, li.ecxmsonormal1, div.ecxmsonormal1
{mso-style-name:ecxmsonormal1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.ecxmsohyperlink1
{mso-style-name:ecxmsohyperlink1;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.ecxmsohyperlinkfollowed1
{mso-style-name:ecxmsohyperlinkfollowed1;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.ecxemailstyle191
{mso-style-name:ecxemailstyle191;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
p.ecxmsochpdefault1, li.ecxmsochpdefault1, div.ecxmsochpdefault1
{mso-style-name:ecxmsochpdefault1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle29
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US link=blue bgColor=#ffffff vLink=purple>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dave:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I posted and announced the presence of all the
sequences at the contests in Winston, (April and Oct.) and they were widely
looked at. I told the folks that Joe had included both a long and short
Masters, and that he, personally preferred the long, but that the Sequence
Committee was looking for input. So, they haven't been a secret inD2,
anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Member, Sequence Committee.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 19, 2009 3:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Where
are all the new sequences for 2011 published for us to review? I haven’t seen
them. Don’t they have to be submitted as rules proposals for the Contest
Board? I hope the Masters sequence adopted is shorter than the one
we are flying now. Also eliminating judging takeoff and landing would give
judges a little more of a break between flyers. Spending most of my time at a
contest judging a large contingent of Masters flyers is not my idea of fun
anymore.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joe
Lachowski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 19, 2009 3:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Discussion List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If we go this
route, I for one will definitely quit.<BR> <BR> We already have new
sequences designed for 2011 for all the classes. And we have been
adopting a maneuver here and there from the FAI sequences. They
will be presented in the K-factor sometime in the future. There are even
two different sequences put together for Masters. One is the traditional
length and the other is the same length as FAI.<BR> <BR>The new FAI
sequence for next year is a real good example not to flat
out adopt a P sequence as it is.<BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR id=stopSpelling align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:
burtona@atmc.net<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Oct
2009 11:56:40 -0400<BR>CC: tom_babs@bellsouth.net<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
seems to me that adopting the FAI “P” schedule for the Masters class with
“changes” is not the way to go. A better alternative IMO is to fly FAI P
schedule under FAI rules as a separate class. Those of us with some age
remember when this was done years ago as “D” expert and “D” Novice classes. As
I remember AMA class “D” was the FAI event back then. This would have
the advantages of two classes flying under the same rules and the benefits of
more flyers/judges familiar with the same rules and maneuvers. It would
also eliminate the work involved in coming up with a new Masters sequence
every three or so years as a new schedule would be automatically be invoked
FAI changed. I’d like to see a proposal for this change submitted to the
Contest Board.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 19, 2009 11:29
AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Lance,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just
to clarify. I am not the only one making this proposal. Don Ramsey
and Charlie Rock helped me to put it together. I am going to try to
respond to your questions below. Please read below in <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">bold. </SPAN></STRONG>Thanks
for bringing this discussion to the list. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<patterndude@tx.rr.com><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009
11:51:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
know official discussion hasn't started but this list is one of the good
vetting forums. Vince proposed Masters flying FAI P, which is clear
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">(this is for sure the
most important statement)</SPAN></STRONG>, but if the logic behind the
proposal as written causes confusion it may make a less convincing case.
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Good point. We
assumed that was easy for someone that is very familiar to pattern to digest
the intent of the proposal. Your conclusions are correct. We are
assuming that the current procedures we use to design the Master schedule
are not changed. We adopt the current FAI P schedule with
the appropriate changes to suit the Master class. This is the
reason why we didn't try to discuss other
details. </SPAN></STRONG>For example, it says "there is an evident
pile up f pilots in the Masters class" but never clearly states how flying the
same sequence would change that. He may be implying that people will
more freely move between classes to balance the lines because they are flying
a similar sequence but the sequences may not be identical and the judging
rules are not identical. <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Correct. You actually saw what
happened in Tulsa this year. There were 10 pilots in Masters and
you decided to divide the group in two and five flew Masters
and five flew FAI. This also happened already in other local
contest around KC. It happens at Fort Scott contest also. Pilots
will be more willing to do this we fly the same schedule.
</SPAN></STRONG>At another point it says "This will make judging of both
classes very accurate" but doesn't address the obvious differences in judging
criteria between AMA and FAI, which is the current burden that Masters and FAI
pilots currently bear when the fly one class and judge the other.<STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> I am sure that we will agree that
it will be a lot easier to deal with these differences if we fly the same
schedules. The proposal intent is not to address the differences in
judging criteria between AMA and FAI. I believe that it will become
natural as we start to fly the same schedule and the differences
will go away with time. </SPAN></STRONG>Finally, there is no exact
wording proposed on the form where it is expected, but later in the logic it
refers to the idea of replacing some FAI maneuvers where appropriate.
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We are assuming that
the current procedure to design the schedules is still in
place. The committee will check the current FAI P schedule and proposed
a final one with the changes to make it suitable for Masters. For
example, P11 the only portion I will change is the integrated half loop on the
figure M. I will suggest something like 2 of 4 or 1/2 roll on
bottom to replace the integrated 1/2 roll. I believe that all other
maneuvers are suitable for Masters. </SPAN></STRONG>Without exact
wording, its not clear how this is done, or if the maneuver descriptions will
be re-written in the AMA rules, or referenced to the FAI descriptions like the
sequence. <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The committee will decide whatever
is appropriate. If they feel that the FAI descriptions are
appropiate we could use it as is.</SPAN></STRONG> Oh, and how does
AMA deal with the fact that FAI changes schedules in odd years?<STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> We will need to follow FAI
schedule. I think that this is very possible and should not be
a problem. </SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My
intent is simply to point out aspects that detract from it's
thoroughness. I do not yet have a stance on the issue.<STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> We put this together just
taking at the 2008 Nats. I remember that I have to judge FAI and I never
had the chance to judge FAI before the Nats. I was trying to study the
FAI schedule at the same time that I was trying to fly my own contest.
This is clearly an additional pressure on the contestant. If this
proposal pass it will make our life easier at the local contest and when
we judging at the Nats or any other contest. Also, clearly will make the
judging level very high because Masters and FAI pilots will be very familiar
with the schedules we fly and the details requires to judge each of the
maneuvers. Finally, the balance in local contest will be easier to
fix since we will more willing to fly FAI when required.
</SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--Lance</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hotmail: Free,
trusted and rich email service. <A
href="http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/" target=_new>Get it
now.</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>