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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks Bill, I saw the list you had at Winston/Salem. I didn’t
realize those had been decided and assumed they were merely drafts being
considered. Shouldn’t they be posted on the NSRCA web site for everyone
to see and comment on? At least someone post them on the e-mail list along with
the names of the committee(s) members so people can provide some input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill
Glaze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 19, 2009 4:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dave:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
posted and announced the presence of all the sequences at the contests in
Winston, (April and Oct.) and they were widely looked at. I told the
folks that Joe had included both a long and short Masters, and that he,
personally preferred the long, but that the Sequence Committee was looking for
input. So, they haven't been a secret inD2, anyway.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bill
Glaze</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Member,
Sequence Committee.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
title="burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, October 19,
2009 3:37 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Where are all the new sequences for 2011 published for us to
review? I haven’t seen them. Don’t they have to be submitted as
rules proposals for the Contest Board? I hope the Masters sequence
adopted is shorter than the one we are flying now. Also eliminating judging
takeoff and landing would give judges a little more of a break between flyers.
Spending most of my time at a contest judging a large contingent of Masters
flyers is not my idea of fun anymore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe
Lachowski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 19, 2009 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Discussion List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>If
we go this route, I for one will definitely quit.<br>
<br>
We already have new sequences designed for 2011 for all the classes.
And we have been adopting a maneuver here and there from
the FAI sequences. They will be presented in the K-factor sometime in the
future. There are even two different sequences put together for Masters. One is
the traditional length and the other is the same length as FAI.<br>
<br>
The new FAI sequence for next year is a real
good example not to flat out adopt a P sequence as it is.<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>From: burtona@atmc.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:56:40 -0400<br>
CC: tom_babs@bellsouth.net<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It seems to me that adopting the FAI “P” schedule
for the Masters class with “changes” is not the way to go. A better
alternative IMO is to fly FAI P schedule under FAI rules as a separate
class. Those of us with some age remember when this was done years ago as
“D” expert and “D” Novice classes. As I remember AMA
class “D” was the FAI event back then. This would have the
advantages of two classes flying under the same rules and the benefits of more
flyers/judges familiar with the same rules and maneuvers. It would also
eliminate the work involved in coming up with a new Masters sequence every
three or so years as a new schedule would be automatically be invoked FAI
changed. I’d like to see a proposal for this change submitted to the
Contest Board.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 19, 2009 11:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi Lance,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Just to clarify. I am not
the only one making this proposal. Don Ramsey and Charlie
Rock helped me to put it together. I am going to try to respond to
your questions below. Please read below in <strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>bold. </span></strong>Thanks for
bringing this discussion to the list. <br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude@tx.rr.com><br>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:51:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I know official discussion hasn't started but this list is one of
the good vetting forums. Vince proposed Masters flying FAI P, which is
clear <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(this is for sure
the most important statement)</span></strong>, but if the logic behind the
proposal as written causes confusion it may make a less convincing case. <strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Good point. We assumed that was
easy for someone that is very familiar to pattern to digest the intent of the
proposal. Your conclusions are correct. We are assuming that the
current procedures we use to design the Master schedule are not
changed. We adopt the current FAI P schedule with the
appropriate changes to suit the Master class. This is the
reason why we didn't try to discuss other details. </span></strong>For
example, it says "there is an evident pile up f pilots in the Masters
class" but never clearly states how flying the same sequence would change
that. He may be implying that people will more freely move between
classes to balance the lines because they are flying a similar sequence but the
sequences may not be identical and the judging rules are not
identical. <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Correct.
You actually saw what happened in Tulsa this year. There were 10
pilots in Masters and you decided to divide the group in two and five flew
Masters and five flew FAI. This also happened already in other local
contest around KC. It happens at Fort Scott contest also. Pilots
will be more willing to do this we fly the same schedule. </span></strong>At
another point it says "This will make judging of both classes very
accurate" but doesn't address the obvious differences in judging criteria
between AMA and FAI, which is the current burden that Masters and FAI pilots
currently bear when the fly one class and judge the other.<strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> I am sure that we will agree that it
will be a lot easier to deal with these differences if we fly the same
schedules. The proposal intent is not to address the differences in
judging criteria between AMA and FAI. I believe that it will become
natural as we start to fly the same schedule and the differences will
go away with time. </span></strong>Finally, there is no exact
wording proposed on the form where it is expected, but later in the logic it
refers to the idea of replacing some FAI maneuvers where appropriate. <strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>We are assuming that the current
procedure to design the schedules is still in place. The
committee will check the current FAI P schedule and proposed a final one with
the changes to make it suitable for Masters. For example, P11 the only
portion I will change is the integrated half loop on the figure M. I will
suggest something like 2 of 4 or 1/2 roll on bottom to replace the
integrated 1/2 roll. I believe that all other maneuvers are suitable for
Masters. </span></strong>Without exact wording, its not clear how this is
done, or if the maneuver descriptions will be re-written in the AMA rules, or
referenced to the FAI descriptions like the sequence. <strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The committee will decide whatever is
appropriate. If they feel that the FAI descriptions are
appropiate we could use it as is.</span></strong> Oh, and how does
AMA deal with the fact that FAI changes schedules in odd years?<strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> We will need to follow FAI
schedule. I think that this is very possible and should not be
a problem. </span></strong></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>My intent is simply to point out aspects that detract from it's
thoroughness. I do not yet have a stance on the issue.<strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> We put this together just
taking at the 2008 Nats. I remember that I have to judge FAI and I never
had the chance to judge FAI before the Nats. I was trying to study the
FAI schedule at the same time that I was trying to fly my own contest.
This is clearly an additional pressure on the contestant. If this
proposal pass it will make our life easier at the local contest and when we
judging at the Nats or any other contest. Also, clearly will make the
judging level very high because Masters and FAI pilots will be very familiar
with the schedules we fly and the details requires to judge each of the
maneuvers. Finally, the balance in local contest will be easier to
fix since we will more willing to fly FAI when required.
</span></strong></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>--Lance</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Hotmail:
Free, trusted and rich email service. <a
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