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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Joe is the boss of the committee. He's the
one to ask about posting.The only reason I posted them (after asking Joe's
permission) was for comments. I had from few to none. I several
times asked for input, and only had one comment, and that comment was on the
Advanced, and was of a general nature.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't know for sure, but POSSIBLY in this
case, Joe might figure that silence means assent. If my experience is
commonplace, he certainly has reason to believe so. However, be advised
that I'm not, and will not, be speaking for Joe. He is his own
person.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dunnaway@hbcomm.net href="mailto:dunnaway@hbcomm.net">Joe
Dunnaway</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 19, 2009 4:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>How about letting the rest of us know what the sequences
are. I would like to see them.<BR><BR>Joe Dunnaway<BR><BR>Bill Glaze
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:A5387865E1544D9F9317A23D4516C397@glazecstp32xp
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dave:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I posted and announced the presence of all the
sequences at the contests in Winston, (April and Oct.) and they were widely
looked at. I told the folks that Joe had included both a long and
short Masters, and that he, personally preferred the long, but that the
Sequence Committee was looking for input. So, they haven't been a
secret inD2, anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Member, Sequence Committee.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Dave Burton</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">'General pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, October 19, 2009 3:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Where
are all the new sequences for 2011 published for us to review? I haven’t
seen them. Don’t they have to be submitted as rules proposals for the
Contest Board? I hope the Masters sequence adopted is shorter
than the one we are flying now. Also eliminating judging takeoff and
landing would give judges a little more of a break between flyers.
Spending most of my time at a contest judging a large contingent of
Masters flyers is not my idea of fun anymore.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Joe Lachowski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 19, 2009
3:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Discussion List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If we go this
route, I for one will definitely quit.<BR> <BR> We already have
new sequences designed for 2011 for all the classes. And we have been
adopting a maneuver here and there from the FAI sequences.
They will be presented in the K-factor sometime in the future. There
are even two different sequences put together for Masters. One is the
traditional length and the other is the same length as
FAI.<BR> <BR>The new FAI sequence for next year is a real
good example not to flat out adopt a P sequence as it
is.<BR> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR id=stopSpelling align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A><BR>To: <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date:
Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:56:40 -0400<BR>CC: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:tom_babs@bellsouth.net">tom_babs@bellsouth.net</A><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
seems to me that adopting the FAI “P” schedule for the Masters class with
“changes” is not the way to go. A better alternative IMO is to fly
FAI P schedule under FAI rules as a separate class. Those of us with some
age remember when this was done years ago as “D” expert and “D” Novice
classes. As I remember AMA class “D” was the FAI event back then.
This would have the advantages of two classes flying under the same rules
and the benefits of more flyers/judges familiar with the same rules
and maneuvers. It would also eliminate the work involved in coming up with
a new Masters sequence every three or so years as a new schedule would be
automatically be invoked FAI changed. I’d like to see a proposal for this
change submitted to the Contest Board.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
October 19, 2009 11:29 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Lance,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just
to clarify. I am not the only one making this proposal. Don
Ramsey and Charlie Rock helped me to put it together. I am
going to try to respond to your questions below. Please read below
in <STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">bold.
</SPAN></STRONG>Thanks for bringing this discussion to the list.
<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message
-----<BR>From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com"><patterndude@tx.rr.com></A><BR>To:
"NSRCA Mailing List" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:51:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
know official discussion hasn't started but this list is one of the good
vetting forums. Vince proposed Masters flying FAI P, which is clear
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">(this is for sure
the most important statement)</SPAN></STRONG>, but if the logic behind the
proposal as written causes confusion it may make a less convincing
case. <STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Good
point. We assumed that was easy for someone that is very familiar to
pattern to digest the intent of the proposal. Your conclusions are
correct. We are assuming that the current procedures we use
to design the Master schedule are not changed. We adopt
the current FAI P schedule with the appropriate changes to
suit the Master class. This is the reason why we didn't try to
discuss other details. </SPAN></STRONG>For example, it says
"there is an evident pile up f pilots in the Masters class" but never
clearly states how flying the same sequence would change that. He
may be implying that people will more freely move between classes to
balance the lines because they are flying a similar sequence but the
sequences may not be identical and the judging rules are not
identical. <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Correct. You actually saw
what happened in Tulsa this year. There were 10 pilots in
Masters and you decided to divide the group in two and five flew
Masters and five flew FAI. This also happened already in other
local contest around KC. It happens at Fort Scott contest
also. Pilots will be more willing to do this we fly
the same schedule. </SPAN></STRONG>At another point it says
"This will make judging of both classes very accurate" but doesn't address
the obvious differences in judging criteria between AMA and FAI, which is
the current burden that Masters and FAI pilots currently bear when the fly
one class and judge the other.<STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> I am sure that we will agree
that it will be a lot easier to deal with these differences if we fly the
same schedules. The proposal intent is not to address the
differences in judging criteria between AMA and FAI. I believe
that it will become natural as we start to fly the same schedule
and the differences will go away with
time. </SPAN></STRONG>Finally, there is no exact wording
proposed on the form where it is expected, but later in the logic it
refers to the idea of replacing some FAI maneuvers where
appropriate. <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We are assuming that the current
procedure to design the schedules is still in place. The
committee will check the current FAI P schedule and proposed a final one
with the changes to make it suitable for Masters. For example, P11
the only portion I will change is the integrated half loop on the figure
M. I will suggest something like 2 of 4 or 1/2 roll on bottom
to replace the integrated 1/2 roll. I believe that all other
maneuvers are suitable for Masters. </SPAN></STRONG>Without
exact wording, its not clear how this is done, or if the maneuver
descriptions will be re-written in the AMA rules, or referenced to the FAI
descriptions like the sequence. <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The committee will decide
whatever is appropriate. If they feel that the FAI descriptions are
appropiate we could use it as is.</SPAN></STRONG> Oh, and how
does AMA deal with the fact that FAI changes schedules in odd
years?<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> We
will need to follow FAI schedule. I think that this is
very possible and should not be a problem.
</SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My
intent is simply to point out aspects that detract from it's
thoroughness. I do not yet have a stance on the issue.<STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> We put this together just
taking at the 2008 Nats. I remember that I have to judge FAI and I
never had the chance to judge FAI before the Nats. I was trying to
study the FAI schedule at the same time that I was trying to fly my own
contest. This is clearly an additional pressure on the
contestant. If this proposal pass it will make our life easier
at the local contest and when we judging at the Nats or any other
contest. Also, clearly will make the judging level very high because
Masters and FAI pilots will be very familiar with the schedules we fly and
the details requires to judge each of the maneuvers. Finally,
the balance in local contest will be easier to fix since we will
more willing to fly FAI when required.
</SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--Lance</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
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