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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle29><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I found
that the direction of the snap was better one way over the other also. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle29><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>That
"what ever works" part is what we need to remember when writing rules
and quit trying to include how to fly the airplane in the maneuver description.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle29><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle29><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Pavlick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
9:01 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=578 style='width:433.5pt;
mso-cellspacing:0in;margin-left:.5in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>I do positive snaps
on the Avalanche and I got a few 9's at the NAT's so apparently it
doesn't pinch it too much. LOL</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>I'm working on
practicing it both ways to see what looks better. I guess it depends on the
airplane. Some just don't like to do negative snaps and others will really
mess up the loop geometry if you do a positive snap. Like everything else,
whatever works for you is best.</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>It's snowing here
too. :)</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:
inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 10/16/09, frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><frankjuliei@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:
inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><br>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll
(BrakeRoll)Description<br>
To: jpavlick@idseng.com, "'General pattern discussion'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:25 AM</span></font><font color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>
<div id=yiv1575840929>Woudn’t that pinch the loop ? For the sake of my
example, let’s use a positive snap. Don’t know if my
point about judging this maneuver is clear. Flying weather is
,well, not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m rehearsing with a stick
plane.LOL.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>F.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;text-align:center;
border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Pavlick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
11:04 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll (BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='mso-cellspacing:0in;
margin-left:4.2pt;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>Frank,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> In
the Advanced Avalanche you don't <em><i>have</i></em> to push (negative
snap) - you can pull if you prefer. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>John
Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 10/16/09, frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><frankjuliei@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><br>
From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake
Roll)Description<br>
To: "' General pattern discussion '" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 10:45 AM</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>
<div id=yiv561272999> In the current Master’s sequence, the Avalanche
with 1 ½ snap (from the bottom)- The model is inverted and
flies the first half of the outside loop. The aircraft is
supposed to pitch up (pull) for the break, then perform the 1 ½
snap roll. In the Advanced Sequence Avalanche with a
single snap , the aircraft is inverted at the top, but the
pilot has to pitch (push) before the roll. In both situations,
it seems likely that judges will have to look hard to see the
break because of the altitude/location/climb of the model, no?.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Frank</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma;color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
9:43 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact
that pattern planes are so lightly loaded that a large amount of force
in pitch must exist to cause a stall. Stalls, accelerated and/or
assymetric, I don't think are what happens in a pattern snap.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I believe an assymetry in lift does
however. Think of the the wing as two halves (fancy that) where one sides
lifts the equivalent of its whole area and the other side only a small
percentage. Neither panel is stalled per se....one simply lifts less than
the other. Yaw will induce the differential lift once the wing has been
loaded in pitch. Assymetric lift will cause the wing to autorotate in roll
axis.....we accelerate that autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes
will snap with yaw command alone once pitch loading has happened. Most
pattern planes will not because, as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a
whole lot of lift to keep a pattern plane flying</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>My 2c</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>MattK</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ < moleski@canisius.edu ><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)
Description</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_0_905f6800-74da-4358-b0e3-a5e175f882e1">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;background:white'><font size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Keith Black
wrote: <br>
> How about this definition: <br>
<br>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a <br>
> definite break and separation from the <br>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft <br>
> is supposed to be in a stalled <br>
> condition throughout the maneuver ... <br>
<br>
That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad <br>
definition for our purposes. <br>
<br>
I agree with those who want to remove all references to <br>
stalling from the definition of the maneuver. <br>
<br>
The model must depart (break away) from all three <br>
axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated <br>
from the other two does not make good sense to me. <br>
<br>
Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a <br>
spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall <br>
required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding <br>
of what accelerated stalls are like. <br>
<br>
Marty <br>
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