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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Know the feeling. That one ( 45 degree
down, 1 ˝ snap ) presents few doubts from the judges chair. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>J N Hiller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
2:31 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I wasn't getting a lot of offset,
mostly heading change flying the advanced avalanche. I usually needed momentary
full opposite rudder. Adding elevator and reducing rudder helped. Maybe I
wasn't doing something right. Anyway they won't let me fly advanced any more.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Where I am getting a problem now is
in the 1 1/2 45 down snap, that extra half rotation seams to point the airplane
off line and if the finish is downwind it can get ugly. It all happens real
fast especially if the speed is up a little. In any case I'm getting more
comfortable with it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
9:30 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Isn't better to snap
into the wind to avoid displacement when there is cross wind (almost always in
contests)? <br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller@earthlink.net><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">jpavlick@idseng.com</st1:PersonName>, "<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:24:00 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle30><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I found that the
direction of the snap was better one way over the other also. </span></font></span><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle30><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>That "what
ever works" part is what we need to remember when writing rules and quit
trying to include how to fly the airplane in the maneuver description.</span></font></span><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=EmailStyle30><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim Hiller</span></font></span><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Pavlick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009 9:01
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=578
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>I do positive snaps
on the Avalanche and I got a few 9's at the NAT's so apparently it
doesn't pinch it too much. LOL</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>I'm working on
practicing it both ways to see what looks better. I guess it depends on the
airplane. Some just don't like to do negative snaps and others will really
mess up the loop geometry if you do a positive snap. Like everything else,
whatever works for you is best.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>It's snowing here
too. :)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 10/16/09, frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><frankjuliei@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><br>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll
(BrakeRoll)Description<br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">jpavlick@idseng.com</st1:PersonName>, "'<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:25 AM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=yiv1575840929>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Woudn’t that pinch the loop ? For
the sake of my example, let’s use a positive snap.
Don’t know if my point about judging this maneuver is clear.
Flying weather is ,well, not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m
rehearsing with a stick plane.LOL.</span></font><font color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>
</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
border:none;padding:0in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>F.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:4.2pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:4.2pt;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
border:none;padding:0in'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma;color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Pavlick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
11:04 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll (BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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style='margin-left:4.2pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>Frank,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> In
the Advanced Avalanche you don't <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">have</font></i></em>
to push (negative snap) - you can pull if you prefer. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>John
Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 10/16/09, frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><frankjuliei@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><br>
From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake
Roll)Description<br>
To: "' <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 10:45 AM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=yiv561272999>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> In the current
Master’s sequence, the Avalanche with 1 ˝ snap (from the bottom)-
The model is inverted and flies the first half of the outside loop.
The aircraft is supposed to pitch up (pull) for the break, then
perform the 1 ˝ snap roll. In the Advanced Sequence
Avalanche with a single snap , the aircraft is inverted
at the top, but the pilot has to pitch (push) before the roll.
In both situations, it seems likely that judges will have to
look hard to see the break because of the altitude/location/climb of the
model, no?.</span></font><font color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:.5in'>
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auto;border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;border:none;padding:0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Frank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma;color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
9:43 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact
that pattern planes are so lightly loaded that a large amount
of force in pitch must exist to cause a stall. Stalls, accelerated
and/or assymetric, I don't think are what happens in a pattern snap.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I believe an assymetry in lift does
however. Think of the the wing as two halves (fancy that) where one sides
lifts the equivalent of its whole area and the other side only a small
percentage. Neither panel is stalled per se....one simply lifts less than
the other. Yaw will induce the differential lift once the wing has been
loaded in pitch. Assymetric lift will cause the wing to autorotate in roll
axis.....we accelerate that autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes
will snap with yaw command alone once pitch loading has happened. Most
pattern planes will not because, as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a
whole lot of lift to keep a pattern plane flying</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>My 2c</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>MattK</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face="Arial Unicode MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ < <st1:PersonName w:st="on">moleski@canisius.edu</st1:PersonName>
><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)
Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_0_905f6800-74da-4358-b0e3-a5e175f882e1">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;background:white'><font size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Keith Black
wrote: <br>
> How about this definition: <br>
<br>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a <br>
> definite break and separation from the <br>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft <br>
> is supposed to be in a stalled <br>
> condition throughout the maneuver ... <br>
<br>
That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad <br>
definition for our purposes. <br>
<br>
I agree with those who want to remove all references to <br>
stalling from the definition of the maneuver. <br>
<br>
The model must depart (break away) from all three <br>
axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated <br>
from the other two does not make good sense to me. <br>
<br>
Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a <br>
spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall <br>
required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding <br>
of what accelerated stalls are like. <br>
<br>
Marty <br>
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