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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Woudn’t that pinch the loop ? For
the sake of my example, let’s use a positive snap. Don’t know
if my point about judging this maneuver is clear. Flying weather is ,well,
not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m rehearsing with a stick
plane.LOL.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>F.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Pavlick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
11:04 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll (BrakeRoll)Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Frank,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> In the Advanced Avalanche you don't <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">have</font></i></em> to push (negative snap) - you can
pull if you prefer. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 10/16/09, frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><frankjuliei@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake
Roll)Description<br>
To: "'<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 10:45 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv561272999>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> In the current Master’s sequence, the Avalanche with
1 ½ snap (from the bottom)- The model is inverted and flies the
first half of the outside loop. The aircraft is supposed to pitch
up (pull) for the break, then perform the 1 ½ snap roll. In the
Advanced Sequence Avalanche with a single snap , the aircraft is
inverted at the top, but the pilot has to pitch (push) before
the roll. In both situations, it seems likely that judges
will have to look hard to see the break because of the
altitude/location/climb of the model, no?.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Frank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 16, 2009
9:43 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact that pattern planes
are so lightly loaded that a large amount of force in pitch must
exist to cause a stall. Stalls, accelerated and/or assymetric, I don't
think are what happens in a pattern snap.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>I believe an assymetry in lift does however. Think of the
the wing as two halves (fancy that) where one sides lifts the equivalent of
its whole area and the other side only a small percentage. Neither panel is
stalled per se....one simply lifts less than the other. Yaw will induce the
differential lift once the wing has been loaded in pitch. Assymetric lift
will cause the wing to autorotate in roll axis.....we accelerate that
autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes will snap with yaw command
alone once pitch loading has happened. Most pattern planes will not because,
as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a whole lot of lift to keep a pattern
plane flying</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>My 2c</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>MattK</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ <<st1:PersonName w:st="on">moleski@canisius.edu</st1:PersonName>><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)
Description<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_0_905f6800-74da-4358-b0e3-a5e175f882e1">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Keith Black
wrote: <br>
> How about this definition: <br>
<br>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a <br>
> definite break and separation from the <br>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft <br>
> is supposed to be in a stalled <br>
> condition throughout the maneuver ... <br>
<br>
That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad <br>
definition for our purposes. <br>
<br>
I agree with those who want to remove all references to <br>
stalling from the definition of the maneuver. <br>
<br>
The model must depart (break away) from all three <br>
axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated <br>
from the other two does not make good sense to me. <br>
<br>
Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a <br>
spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall <br>
required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding <br>
of what accelerated stalls are like. <br>
<br>
Marty <br>
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