<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>Jason,</P>
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<P>Probably you need this one from Chris Moon. I need to follow his instructions and read it many times. I think there was another one but I can not find it:</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">>Ahhh.<BR>> angle of attack is not the same as the aircraft<BR>> attitude.Websters defines angle<BR>> of attack as "the acute angle between the chord of an<BR>> airfoil and the line<BR>> of relative air flow". The relative wind flows<BR>> parallel and opposite<BR>> the direction of the wing's movement through the<BR>> air.The wing's attitude as we<BR>> see it from the ground is NOT the same as angle of attack.<BR>> If you are in a<BR>> vertical climb is the wing stalled? After all it is<BR>> 90 degrees ATTUIUDE<BR>> from your perspective on the ground, right? But the wing is<BR>> not stalled because<BR>> the relative wind is coming parallel and opposite the<BR>> direction of flight. You<BR>> can be in a nose low descent and stall a wing. Now<BR>> take a straight and<BR>> level pass and give it an instantaneous large amount of up<BR>> elevator. What<BR>> happens? First, the plane continues in the direction it was<BR>> going (straight<BR>> ahead) for a short time, but what is important is that the<BR>> angle between the<BR>> relative wind (straight ahead) and the wing which is now<BR>> pivoting up increases<BR>> until it reaches the critical angle of attack and it<BR>> stalls. Without<BR>> knowing the specifics of that wing design, we can't<BR>> know when exactly this will<BR>> occur, but it can be extremely fast and at a relatively low<BR>> ATTITUDE in<BR>> relation to the ground. Hence, you do not need a high<BR>> nose ATTITUDE in<BR>> order to have a high angle of attack. There are too many<BR>> variables for one to<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">say that they need to see a nose high attitude in order to<BR>> define a high angle<BR>> of attack and thus a stall. Remember also, that<BR>> different wings have a<BR>> different critical angle of attack where a wing will<BR>> stall. How does<BR>> anyone know where that angle is without a wind tunnel and<BR>> testing? and who am I<BR>> to say it did not pitch up enough to stall therefore I<BR>> giveth the pilot a 5 or<BR>> zero even though I cannot possibly know the particulars of<BR>> the wing that I am<BR>> watching.<BR>> <BR>> My comment of the 1-2 degrees was to say that we do not<BR>> know how closely any<BR>> particular wing is flying from it's critical angle of<BR>> attack. If it is in<BR>> fact close, a change of only 1-2 degrees can cause a<BR>> stall. We are trying<BR>> to be aerodynamic engineers from the ground and deciding<BR>> for ourselves what the<BR>> angle "should" look like and downgrading<BR>> accordingly. Now throw<BR>> in the conceptual difference between angle of attack and<BR>> aircraft attitude, and<BR>> it is easy to come to the wrong conclusion about stall or<BR>> no stall. Are we<BR>> fling only 1-2 degrees from the critical angle most of the<BR>> time, no but the<BR>> point it that there is absolutely no aerodynamic<BR>> requirement for a very nose<BR>> high ATTITUDE to be a requirement in order to get a high<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">angle of attack on the<BR>> wing.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Chris</SPAN></P>
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<P><BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J Shu" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:46:52 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>But they left NO doubt about pitch break... isn't that what everyone needs to see, or did I delete too many posts without reading them?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">and SEBANDREW SNAP for the not normal one.<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Vicente \"Vince\" Bortone" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:40:03 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Let's called NORMAL SNAP. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J Shu" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:45:13 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>I don't remember anyone saying they received a 0 at the Worlds. Andrew and Seba had the 'IMAC' pitch break, most of the the rest of us had the 'normal' snap.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>One thing I found funny was some of the other pilots that would 'show pitch break' would actually do mostly a roll afterwards. I guess if you 'show pitch break' the plane 'must be stalled' right...lol.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</DIV>
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<P>Jason,</P>
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<P>It will be interesting to know at the WC in Portugal. I never got one in local contests this year. I don't think at local contest we are zeroing even when there is not a clear snap. At the Nats I zeroed some years ago. I never got a complain. I have been downgrading 3 points for not presenting the break in pitch trying to use the current snap description. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J Shu" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:17:46 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>Just curious... how many are getting zero'd for doing snaps?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></DIV>
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