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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I think
so, resulting from sweep angle presenting less wing span into the air stream<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle23><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>James Oddino<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 14, 2009
9:27 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Is it
possible we don't have a well understood definition of the term "stalled
wing"? I was taught that at the critical angle of attack the change
in the lift coefficient for a given change in alpha decreased. (The slope
became non-linear.) Note that it doesn't say the lift went to zero, it
just didn't increase as fast, stayed constant, or started to decrease as alpha
increased beyond the critical angle. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>That would
seem to say that both wings could be "stalled" and still be producing
lift and if one was lifting more than the other (one wing stalled more than the
other) while the plane was yawing, we'd say it was spinning or snapping
depending on the flight path.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So the
question is, can we get one wing lifting more than the other while yawing
without reaching the critical angle of attack?</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Jim</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Oct 14,
2009, at 3:12 AM, Budd Engineering wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br
style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<div style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>Chris,
Vicente, et al.,</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Angle of attack, alpha or AOA, for the
aircraft is the difference between the flight path angle, gamma, and the
aircraft attitude, theta (assuming the airfoil zero lift angle is essentially
aligned with the aircraft reference datum, which for all practical purposes on
our designs, it is). Reference: <a
href="http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml">http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml</a>.
Flight path angle is the aircraft trajectory, or in pattern speak, "track"
but along the pitch axis, i.e. climbing or descending. In level, steady
state flight (~1-g), the flight path angle is zero. Which means that the
angle of attack is equal to the aircraft pitch attitude. If you run the
numbers using a reasonable airfoil lift curve slope at a representative level
flight speed for our planes you'll find that our planes trim out around ~ 0.5
degrees alpha (Lift = Weight = CL * Qbar * S where CL is the lift coefficient,
Qbar is the dynamic pressure, and S is the reference wing area). This is
because of our extremely low wing loading, it simply doesn't take a lot of
angle of attack to generate 1-g of lift when your airplane only weighs 10 or 11
lbs. Here's the other part: with the exception of velocity (or airspeed),
the equation is linear, which means that if you double the aircraft weight, for
the same flight speed, you get twice the alpha (again, for 1-g trim). Or
if you kept the weight at say 10 lbs, but cut the wing area in half, the angle
of attack would then double to ~ 1 degree (again, for level, steady, 1-g
flight). Velocity is a little trickier to account for because it's a
non-linear second order function in the lift equation (remember Qbar?
Reference: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pressure">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pressure</a>,
Qbar = 1/2 * rho * V**2) where rho is air density and V is the velocity).
Essentially, the lift doubles every time we increase Qbar by 2, or
velocity by the square root of 2 (or 1.414). So if you're flying along in
level flight at 60 mph (88 feet per second), and you speed up to 85 mph mph
(124.45 feet per second), you've doubled your dynamic pressure (Qbar) and to
stay at level 1-g flight, you'd have to retrim your plane in pitch to 1/2 of
what your AOA was before (or you'll start climbing). In this case the AOA
would be ~ 0.25 degrees (as would the pitch attitude). One last bit of
info for the point I'm about to make is that the lift curve slope for our
airfoils at the Reynolds Numbers we are operating at is linear out to around
~15-16 degrees alpha, with separation of lift occurring above that, closer to
18-20 degrees alpha (Reference: <a
href="http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0136.shtml)">http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0136.shtml)</a>.
Note that the onset of separation is independent of airspeed, it's purely
a flow angle phenomenon, i.e. you can stall an airfoil at any airspeed, or
attitude (if you can get to a high enough angle of attack). That's
essentially what Chris is saying below.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So what does this all mean?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>If you look at the numbers, for our
planes, you can't get to stall from steady level flight (at any reasonable
cruise speed) without inducing a significant G-loading on the aircraft (which
will cause a noticeable, and very observable, change in the flight path angle),
BEFORE the airfoil stalls.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Here's some more numbers to help you
connect the dots: from level 1-g trim flight at 1/2 degree AOA, you'd
have to induce nearly 30 g's to get to ~ 15 alpha, not likely you'd be able to
do that without seeing it. Even starting at 2 degrees AOA (which is a lot
for our models), you have to generate nearly 5-6 g's to reach stall (think
you'd notice that?). Don't believe me? OK answer this: Have you
ever quickly but smoothly from level upright 1-g flight at a normal cruise
speed input full aft stick for a second or two and then release it but no
lateral input? What happens? Unless something is grossly wrong with
your airplane you're likely to see a rapid pitch up and a corresponding change
in flight path angle, probably to something approaching a near vertical
attitude, but not much else. Why? Our planes are so lightly loaded
that only at spin entry and landing speeds can we induce enough angle of attack
to approach stall on the airfoil on the plane without inducing significant g's
and grossly altering the flight path angle (and flight path angle is what we
really see when we're flying at cruise speeds BTW, not so much the pitch
attitude until we're at much lower speeds. That's because we mentally
integrate the velocity vector in our minds but that's a topic for another
time/day). Full scale aerobatic planes (and to a lessor degree IMAC
planes) don't suffer this problem nearly so badly since their wing loadings and
inertia's are much higher (dynamic stability is somewhat more complex than
static stability so I'm not going to go much further than this on this topic).
The bottom line is this: we're not stalling the wing when we do our
snaps, not even a portion of it (unless you're VERY low on airspeed at entry
such as a spin). We're too lightly loaded to get to stall at any
reasonable airspeed, the airplane will respond too quickly in the pitch axis
resulting in a rapid change in flight path angle, effectively unloading
the AOA during the response.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So what are we doing to make the plane
present what appears to be a snap roll when we can't actually be stalling the
wing asymmetrically to induce autorotation like many claim? Lots of
control power in pitch and roll coupled with additional rolling moment induced
by dihedral effect (sideslip driven by rudder input). Pretty much
everyone knows that at higher AOA you can command/control roll with rudder,
well that's due to dihedral effect (roll with rudder), it gets more powerful
with a little AOA. That's where you get the part of the dynamic that
visually emulates a full scale snap roll but physically is quite different (you
can make it look like a full-scale snap, but it really isn't).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So the bigger question is should emulating
a full-scale snap roll be a pattern judging criterion or do we even care? (we
know what the answer is for full scale aerobatics and probably IMAC too but we
are neither of these). Until we decide the answer to THAT question, we're
really just debating "how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin"...</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>OK, it's really, really late out here on
the left coast, I've gotta get to bed. Shoot away.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thx, Jerry</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div apple-content-edited="true">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><br>
<span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'>Budd Engineering</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com">jerry@buddengineering.com</a></span></font><font
size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="http://www.buddengineering.com/">http://www.buddengineering.com</a></span></font><font
size=3 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Chris Moon
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'>Ahhh. angle of attack is not
the same as the aircraft attitude.Websters defines angle of attack as "the
acute angle between the chord of an airfoil and the line of relative air
flow". The relative wind flows parallel and opposite the direction
of the wing's movement through the air.The wing's attitude as we see it from
the ground is NOT the same as angle of attack. If you are in a vertical climb
is the wing stalled? After all it is 90 degrees ATTUIUDE from your
perspective on the ground, right? But the wing is not stalled because the
relative wind is coming parallel and opposite the direction of flight. You can
be in a nose low descent and stall a wing. Now take a straight and level
pass and give it an instantaneous large amount of up elevator. What happens?
First, the plane continues in the direction it was going (straight ahead) for a
short time, but what is important is that the angle between the relative wind
(straight ahead) and the wing which is now pivoting up increases until it
reaches the critical angle of attack and it stalls. Without knowing the
specifics of that wing design, we can't know when exactly this will occur, but
it can be extremely fast and at a relatively low ATTITUDE in relation to the
ground. Hence, you do not need a high nose ATTITUDE in order to have a
high angle of attack. There are too many variables for one to say that they need
to see a nose high attitude in order to define a high angle of attack and thus
a stall. Remember also, that different wings have a different critical
angle of attack where a wing will stall. How does anyone know where that
angle is without a wind tunnel and testing? and who am I to say it did not
pitch up enough to stall therefore I giveth the pilot a 5 or zero even though I
cannot possibly know the particulars of the wing that I am watching.<br>
My comment of the 1-2 degrees was to say that we do not know how closely any
particular wing is flying from it's critical angle of attack. If it is in
fact close, a change of only 1-2 degrees can cause a stall. We are trying
to be aerodynamic engineers from the ground and deciding for ourselves what the
angle "should" look like and downgrading accordingly. Now throw
in the conceptual difference between angle of attack and aircraft attitude, and
it is easy to come to the wrong conclusion about stall or no stall. Are we
fling only 1-2 degrees from the critical angle most of the time, no but the
point it that there is absolutely no aerodynamic requirement for a very nose
high ATTITUDE to be a requirement in order to get a high angle of attack on the
wing.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone wrote:</span></font><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-left:2.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.5in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-left:2.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I am copying from the first sentence
FAI rule book: "</span></font><span class=apple-converted-space><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font></span><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black'>A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll)
is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude,<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><strong><b>with a continuous high
angle of attack</b></strong>" The question: Is 1-2 degrees consider
a good amount to define a high angle of attack? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:1.5in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-left:2.0in'><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Chris Moon"<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com"><cjm767driver@hotmail.com></a><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:07:01 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<br>
<br>
I think what this goes back to is the erroneous belief that you need to see an
exaggerated pitch departure or it should be severely downgraded. Keep
reading the maneuver description. It needs "A" pitch break, and
depending on the current aoa (angle of attack) that can be a difference of just
a degree or 2 if you are near the critical aoa. Please don't tell me
guys, you are looking for MORE than a simple exceeding of the critical aoa and
resulting stall. An exaggerated pitch break just to prove to naysayers
that you make a break is wrong, wrong, wrong. It says it needs
"A" break. Please keep re-reading it. Same for spin
entry. It needs to stall, not go 30 degrees nose up to "prove"
a stall. We are getting wound up over a misunderstanding of the mechanics
of a stalled condition. As Don and Verne are alluding to, it really is
not that complicated.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>verne@twmi.rr.com</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:2.0in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Or you could just write in "DNO".... I always seem to see the break as in, nose up, tail down, and my 56 year old eyes are lousy. Verne ---- "Vicente "Vince" Bortone" <a
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true><vicenterc@comcast.net></a> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:2.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
2.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:2.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Verne, Following AMA description: if we don't see the break is 5 points downgrade. That is 1/2 of the snap roll maneuver. Therefore, if we see the snap roll but don't see the break the judge has the right to write down 5 points score assuming that all other components are perfect. Therefore, base on the rule book the snap roll without a break has a value of 5 points. Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: verne @ twmi . rr .com To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion@lists. nsrca .org> Cc: "Don Ramsey" <don. ramsey @ suddenlink .net> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:14:02 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) Is there anybody involved in this discussion that honestly can't recognize a snap when they see one? I'm just asking..... Verne ---- Don Ramsey <don. ramsey @ suddenlink .net> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:2.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Vince, What about the next sentence in the FAI definition, “If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).” How about if the break does not show and the model does NOT barrel roll around. Do you still downgrade by 5 or more points? I don’t know what the intent of the rule was but I can tell you for a fact that the judges that only score FAI in Europe do not downgrade it by 5 or more points. I believe they use the “If it’s not a barrel and not an axial roll then it’s probably a snap, so judge it that way” because they have been instructed in the past to do it that way. Don rom: nsrca -discussion-bounces@lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces@lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince" Bortone Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:10 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expe<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>rt Snap Judge (TIC) Matt, I am copying the snap description from the current FAI and AMA manuals. I don't see the AND you mention in the FAI rule book. See the important portion in bold. I see that the AMA description is better in this respect. You are correct in regard the downgrade in FAI . 5 or more points if you don't see the break and the model barrel rolls. Therefore, what is the downgrade in FAI if the judge does not see the break and there is autorotation? I will say 5 points since it says 5 or more points if the model barrel rolls. Again, it appears that AMA down grad descriptions are better. FAI : SNAP-ROLLS A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned. At the start of a <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. AMA: Snaps: A Snap roll is a simultaneous, rapid autorotation in the pitch, yaw and roll axes of flight in a stalled wing attitude. The following criteria apply: 1. Since the maneuver is defined as a stalled maneuver, initiat<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>ed by a stall of the wing induced by a rapid change in pitch attitude, the nose of the fuselage must show a definite break in pitch attitude from the flight path in the direction of the snap (positive or negative) while the track closely maintains the flight path. The lack of a discernable pitch break is downgraded by 5 points. Large deviations from the flight path, indicative of a delayed stall, are to be downgraded using the 1 point per 15-degree rule for each axis of the excursion before stall. For example, it the model pitches 15 degrees nose up and the wings rotate 15 degrees before the stall, the maneuver should be downgraded 1 point for pitch and 1 point for roll. 2. The track visualized as the path of the Center of Gravity (CG) should closely follow the geometric flight path of the maneuver while the nose and tail auto rotate through opposite helical arcs around the flight path. Lack of these helical arcs (or coning) is indicative of an axial roll and is scored zero. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:3.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>3. If a stall does not occur and the model barrel rolls, the score is zero. A barrel roll can be identified when the CG, the nose, and tails scribe the same helical path through the required rotation of the maneuver 4. Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of rotation, constant flight path through the maneuver and centering on lines. 5. If the model returns to an unstalled condition during the maneuver, such that the autorotation is not visible and the model rolls or barrel rolls to complete the maneuver, it would be downgraded using the 1 point per 15 degree rule. 6. Airspeed is not a criteria which should be used to judge this maneuver. The wing of the model is stalled during this maneuver; therefore a significant decrease in speed may occur and is not a cause for downgrade. Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Frederick" <a
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true><mjfrederick@cox.net></a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:3.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion@lists. nsrca .org> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:47:30 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) ? While speaking with Don Ramsey about the nuances of judging snaps at a recent contest I found that he agreed with my interpretation of the FAI snap rule. The severe downgrade should only be applied if there is no break AND there is no autorotation (this is exactly what the rule says). Basically, lack of a break is not substantial grounds for the severe downgrade in FAI . If the break is not seen and autorotation still occurs at some point during the roll the one point per 15 degree rule applies. Since the snaps happen so fast, for me it's usually not more than 1 or 2 points unless it was blatantly obvious that the plane rotated a while before the snap truly began. It's the same as if you stop the snap before completing the rotation and do an axial roll to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> finish. This nonsense of people being so quick to apply a severe downgrade has gone too far. One element of a maneuver (because I can't think of any sequence that has just a snap roll) should not ruin a whole flight, or eve n that one maneuver unless it just wasn't a snap. I like the idea of "if it's not a barrell roll and not an axial roll, it's probably a snap." Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: Vicente <a
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true><mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net></a> "Vince" Bortone To: General pattern discussion <mailto: nsrca -discussion@lists. nsrca .org> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) I believe that the current downgrade is severe. AMA 5 points. FAI 5 or more points if my memory is correct. In local contest I have been using 3 points downgrade. I know that is wrong but it has been my best way for me to take into account the break issue. It used to be zero and it was changed to 5 points (IMAC still a 10 points downgrade or nada). Therefore, Ron is correct. Probably makes sense to go 2-3 points downgrade if the judge can not see the break before rotation. Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fuqua" <a
href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true><johnfuqua@embarqmail.com></a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:3.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion@lists. nsrca .org> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:51:00 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) Ron makes valid observation which I came to many years ago at the TOC when Mr. Bill graciously funded for full scale pilots like Patty Wagstaff do demo flights to entertain us. The one thing that I came away with in comparing full scale to our airplanes is the speed of the snap/rotation. In the full size aerobatics types that I observed there was plenty of time to see the nose pitch and then after somewhat of a hesitation yaw and rotate. In our pattern planes, especially when using a snap switch, it all gets to be a blur due to sheer speed. I have no solution to this issue but to MAKE the pilots show a break by having severe downgrades. Otherwise the concept of a snap will be ignored. Yes it's hard to see which makes it incumbent on the pilot to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> present it to the judges. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca -discussion-bounces@lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces@lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:3.0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
3.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>ronlock@comcast.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) Here is a description that shows technically correct snap execution, and valid, consistent judging is possible. (Half of the District One guy need not read this, they have already heard it) <G> At a small airport airshow, one of demos was an in-trail formation of four full scale AT-6 Texans. As each plane got to stage center, it did a single positive snap roll. Spectators saw four snap rolls in a row, about 5 seconds apart. The flight of four went around, and repeated the maneuver. Some spectators are getting bored - even a pattern guy could get bored with a string of 8 nearly identical maneuvers. And then, they did it yet again!! What's in this for us? The snap maneuver by each AT-6 appeared to take a second or so, from initiation to completion. By the time the fourth plane did a snap, you could start s<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>eeing.... - there is a nose pitch up, - then a yaw, - then plane rolled in direction of yaw, - plane returned to straight and level flight. By the time the flight came around for another four snaps, you could see more details.. - there is a nose pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least sudden for an AT-6) - then a large amount of yaw, - then rapid roll in direction of yaw, (rolling faster than it could with ailerons) - plane returned to fairly close straight and level, nose slightly high. By the time the flight positioned for yet another four snaps, (Yawn, spectators headed for cotton candy) the four distinct elements of the snap roll maneuver were easy to see, and there was time to evaluate (judge) each element. 1. there is a nose pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least sudden for an AT-6, with little rise in altitude) 2. then large amount of yaw, (the yaw proceeds the upcoming roll) 3. then autorotation at rate faster than it could do an ail<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>eron roll) 4. plane returns to level flight track, with nose lowering to level flight attitude. We can all be expert Snap Roll Judges! Ahhh, at least for AT-6 snaps. What I take from all of this- The problem is not snap descriptions. It's the application of them; observation, discrimination and judging of elements in the split second observation time we have. Is the task beyond reasonable expectations of most of us as a judging community? I suppose we will continue work started over 10 years ago to improve in these areas. In the meantime, shall we reduce the impact of inconsistent judging of snaps by limiting the downgrade of the snap portion of a maneuver to say..two points2? Ron Lockhart _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists. nsrca .org <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a href="http://lists/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://lists</a>. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists. nsrca .org <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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href="http://lists/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>http://lists</a>. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - <a
href="http://www.avg.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>www.avg.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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