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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>HHmmmmmmm.............. Does this "stall" the
fuselage?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I
became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mark
– in that case you are supposed to “jab” the rudder to show a pitch break in
the horizontal plane.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Jim<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Atwood,
Mark<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an
expert Snap Judge (TIC)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hate
to jump into this…but does that mean that by definition the Snap from knife
edge starts at a 5 because there is NO way to see the pitch break???
Come on…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
do, we got a lot of gravy scores this year. Although…if we all started
at 5…that would just lower the value of that maneuver which is what some were
going for in this discussion. Maybe you are on to something </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">J</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: #76923c; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Mark
Atwood</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR></SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Paragon Consulting</SPAN></I></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>office ~ 440-684-3101 ext.
102<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: #548dd4; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #548dd4"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: #76923c; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation.
</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: #76923c"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Verne,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Following AMA
description: if we don't see the break is 5 points downgrade.
That is 1/2 of the snap roll maneuver. Therefore, if we see the
snap roll but don't see the break the judge has the right to write down 5
points score assuming that all other components are perfect. Therefore,
base on the rule book the snap roll without a break has a value of 5
points. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message
-----<BR>From: verne@twmi.rr.com<BR>To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Cc: "Don Ramsey"
<don.ramsey@suddenlink.net><BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:14:02
PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I
became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>Is there anybody involved in this
discussion that honestly can't recognize a snap when they see one? I'm just
asking.....<BR><BR>Verne<BR><BR><BR>---- Don Ramsey
<don.ramsey@suddenlink.net> wrote: <BR>> Vince,<BR>>
<BR>> What about the next sentence in the FAI definition, “If the
stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel rolls<BR>> around,
the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).” <BR>>
<BR>> How about if the break does not show and the model does NOT
barrel roll around. Do you still downgrade by 5 or more points? I
don’t know what the intent of the rule was but I can tell you for a fact that
the judges that only score FAI in Europe do not downgrade it by 5 or more
points. I believe they use the “If it’s not a barrel and not an axial
roll then it’s probably a snap, so judge it that way” because they have been
instructed in the past to do it that way. <BR>> <BR>>
Don<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> rom:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:10 PM<BR>> To: General
pattern discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an
expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR>> <BR>> Matt,<BR>> <BR>> I
am copying the snap description from the current FAI and AMA manuals. I
don't see the AND you mention in the FAI rule book. <BR>> See the
important portion in bold. I see that the AMA description is better in
this respect. You are correct in regard the downgrade in FAI. 5 or
more points if you don't see the break and the model barrel rolls. Therefore,
what is the downgrade in FAI if the judge does not see the break and there is
autorotation? I will say 5 points since it says 5 or more points if the
model barrel rolls. Again, it appears that AMA down grad descriptions
are better. <BR>> <BR>> FAI:<BR>> SNAP-ROLLS<BR>> A
snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the
model aircraft is in a stalled<BR>> attitude, with a continuous high angle
of attack<BR>> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as
far as start and stop of the rotation, and<BR>> constant flight path
through the manoeuvre is concerned.<BR>> At the start of a snap-roll, the
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the<BR>>
flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is
supposed to be in a stalled<BR>> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the
stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls<BR>> around,
the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial<BR>> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more
than 5 points).<BR>> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative,
and the same criteria apply. The attitude<BR>> (positive or negative) is at
the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled<BR>> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<BR>> rule.<BR>> <BR>>
AMA:<BR>> Snaps: A Snap roll is a simultaneous, rapid autorotation in the
pitch, yaw and roll axes of flight in a stalled wing attitude. The following
criteria apply: <BR>> 1. Since the maneuver is defined as a stalled
maneuver, initiated by a stall of the wing induced by a rapid change in pitch
attitude, the nose of the fuselage must show a definite break in pitch
attitude from the flight path in the direction of the snap (positive or
negative) while the track closely maintains the flight path. The lack of a
discernable pitch break is downgraded by 5 points. Large deviations from the
flight path, indicative of a delayed stall, are to be downgraded using the 1
point per 15-degree rule for each axis of the excursion before stall. For
example, it the model pitches 15 degrees nose up and the wings rotate 15
degrees before the stall, the maneuver should be downgraded 1 point for pitch
and 1 point for roll. <BR>> 2. The track visualized as the path of the
Center of Gravity (CG) should closely follow the geometric flight path of the
maneuver while the nose and tail auto rotate through opposite helical arcs
around the flight path. Lack of these helical arcs (or coning) is indicative
of an axial roll and is scored zero. <BR>> 3. If a stall does not occur and
the model barrel rolls, the score is zero. A barrel roll can be identified
when the CG, the nose, and tails scribe the same helical path through the
required rotation of the maneuver <BR>> 4. Snap rolls have the same judging
criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of rotation, constant flight
path through the maneuver and centering on lines. <BR>> 5. If the model
returns to an unstalled condition during the maneuver, such that the
autorotation is not visible and the model rolls or barrel rolls to complete
the maneuver, it would be downgraded using the 1 point per 15 degree rule.
<BR>> 6. Airspeed is not a criteria which should be used to judge this
maneuver. The wing of the model is stalled during this maneuver; therefore a
significant decrease in speed may occur and is not a cause for downgrade.
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> <BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>> From: "Matthew Frederick"
<mjfrederick@cox.net><BR>> To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13,
2009 9:47:30 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR>> <BR>> ?
<BR>> While speaking with Don Ramsey about the nuances of judging snaps at
a recent contest I found that he agreed with my interpretation of the FAI snap
rule. The severe downgrade should only be applied if there is no break AND
there is no autorotation (this is exactly what the rule says). Basically, lack
of a break is not substantial grounds for the severe downgrade in FAI. If the
break is not seen and autorotation still occurs at some point during the roll
the one point per 15 degree rule applies. Since the snaps happen so fast, for
me it's usually not more than 1 or 2 points unless it was blatantly obvious
that the plane rotated a while before the snap truly began. It's the same as
if you stop the snap before completing the rotation and do an axial roll to
finish. This nonsense of people being so quick to apply a severe downgrade has
gone too far. One element of a maneuver (because I can't think of any sequence
that has just a snap roll) should not ruin a whole flight, or even that one
maneuver unless it just wasn't a snap. I like the idea of "if it's not a
barrell roll and not an axial roll, it's probably a snap."<BR>>
<BR>> Matt<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From:
Vicente <mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net> "Vince" Bortone <BR>>
To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>
<BR>> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:12 PM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR>>
<BR>> I believe that the current downgrade is severe. AMA 5
points. FAI 5 or more points if my memory is correct. <BR>>
<BR>> In local contest I have been using 3 points downgrade. I
know that is wrong but it has been my best way for me to take into account the
break issue. It used to be zero and it was changed to 5 points (IMAC
still a 10 points downgrade or nada). Therefore, Ron is correct.
Probably makes sense to go 2-3 points downgrade if the judge can not see
the break before rotation. <BR>> <BR>> Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "John
Fuqua" <johnfuqua@embarqmail.com><BR>> To: "General pattern
discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Monday,
October 12, 2009 1:51:00 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR>> <BR>>
Ron makes valid observation which I came to many years ago at the TOC
when<BR>> Mr. Bill graciously funded for full scale pilots like Patty
Wagstaff do demo<BR>> flights to entertain us. The one thing that I
came away with in comparing<BR>> full scale to our airplanes is the speed
of the snap/rotation. In the full<BR>> size aerobatics types that I
observed there was plenty of time to see the<BR>> nose pitch and then after
somewhat of a hesitation yaw and rotate. In our<BR>> pattern planes,
especially when using a snap switch, it all gets to be a<BR>> blur due to
sheer speed. I have no solution to this issue but to MAKE the<BR>>
pilots show a break by having severe downgrades. Otherwise the concept
of a<BR>> snap will be ignored. Yes it's hard to see which makes it
incumbent on the<BR>> pilot to present it to the judges. <BR>>
<BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of<BR>>
ronlock@comcast.net<BR>> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:26 PM<BR>> To:
General pattern discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I
became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR>> <BR>> Here is a description that
shows technically correct snap execution, and<BR>> valid, consistent
judging is possible.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> (Half of the
District One guy need not read this, they have already heard<BR>> it)
<G><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> At a small airport
airshow, one of demos was an in-trail formation of four<BR>> full scale
AT-6 Texans. As each plane got to stage center, it did a single<BR>>
positive snap roll. Spectators saw four snap rolls in a row, about 5
seconds<BR>> apart.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The flight of
four went around, and repeated the maneuver. Some spectators<BR>> are
getting bored - even a pattern guy could get bored with a string of 8<BR>>
nearly identical maneuvers. And then, they did it yet again!!<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> What's in this for us? The snap
maneuver by each AT-6 appeared to take a<BR>> second or so, from initiation
to completion.<BR>> <BR>> By the time the fourth plane did a snap, you
could start seeing....<BR>> <BR>> - there is a nose pitch up,
<BR>> <BR>> - then a yaw, <BR>> <BR>> - then
plane rolled in direction of yaw,<BR>> <BR>> - plane returned to
straight and level flight.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> By the
time the flight came around for another four snaps, you could see<BR>> more
details..<BR>> <BR>> - there is a nose pitch up, (somewhat
sudden, at least sudden for an AT-6)<BR>> <BR>> - then a large
amount of yaw, <BR>> <BR>> - then rapid roll in direction of yaw,
(rolling faster than it could with<BR>> ailerons) <BR>> <BR>> -
plane returned to fairly close straight and level, nose slightly
high.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> By the time the flight
positioned for yet another four snaps, (Yawn,<BR>> spectators headed for
cotton candy) the four distinct elements of the snap<BR>> roll maneuver
were easy to see, and there was time to evaluate (judge) each<BR>>
element.<BR>> <BR>> 1. there is a nose pitch up,
(somewhat sudden, at least sudden for an<BR>> AT-6, with little rise
in altitude)<BR>> <BR>> 2. then large amount of yaw, (the yaw
proceeds the upcoming roll)<BR>> <BR>> 3. then autorotation at
rate faster than it could do an aileron roll)<BR>> <BR>> 4. plane
returns to level flight track, with nose lowering to level flight<BR>>
attitude.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> We can all be expert Snap
Roll Judges! Ahhh, at least for AT-6 snaps.<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> What I take from all of this-<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> The problem is not snap descriptions. It's the
application of them;<BR>> observation, discrimination and judging of
elements in the split second<BR>> observation time we have. Is the
task beyond reasonable expectations of<BR>> most of us as a judging
community? I suppose we will continue work started<BR>> over 10
years ago to improve in these areas.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
In the meantime, shall we reduce the impact of inconsistent judging of
snaps<BR>> by limiting the downgrade of the snap portion of a maneuver to
say..two<BR>> points2?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Ron
Lockhart<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>> <BR>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>> No virus
found in this incoming message.<BR>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>>
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2428 - Release Date: 10/13/09
06:35:00<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version:
8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09
06:19:00</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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