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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Can there be an autorotation without a stall?
Can there be a stalled condition, (aircraft in a more or less high speed stall)
without a break in the longitudinal axis?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Or: How can an autorotaion be described as
such, without a break in flight path? Isn't there an interdependence
here?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I
became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>While speaking with Don Ramsey about the nuances
of judging snaps at a recent contest I found that he agreed with my
interpretation of the FAI snap rule. The severe downgrade should only be
applied if there is no break AND there is no autorotation (this is exactly
what the rule says). Basically, lack of a break is not substantial grounds for
the severe downgrade in FAI. If the break is not seen and autorotation still
occurs at some point during the roll the one point per 15 degree rule applies.
Since the snaps happen so fast, for me it's usually not more than 1 or 2
points unless it was blatantly obvious that the plane rotated a while before
the snap truly began. It's the same as if you stop the snap before completing
the rotation and do an axial roll to finish. This nonsense of people being so
quick to apply a severe downgrade has gone too far. One element of a maneuver
(because I can't think of any sequence that has just a snap roll) should not
ruin a whole flight, or even that one maneuver unless it just wasn't a snap. I
like the idea of "if it's not a barrell roll and not an axial roll, it's
probably a snap."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 12, 2009 5:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I
became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<P>I believe that the current downgrade is severe. AMA 5 points.
FAI 5 or more points if my memory is correct. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>In local contest I have been using 3 points downgrade. I know
that is wrong but it has been my best way for me to take into account
the break issue. It used to be zero and it was changed to 5
points (IMAC still a 10 points downgrade or nada). Therefore, Ron
is correct. Probably makes sense to go 2-3 points downgrade if the
judge can not see the break before rotation.
<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:
"John Fuqua" <johnfuqua@embarqmail.com><BR>To: "General pattern
discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Monday,
October 12, 2009 1:51:00 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>Ron makes
valid observation which I came to many years ago at the TOC when<BR>Mr. Bill
graciously funded for full scale pilots like Patty Wagstaff do
demo<BR>flights to entertain us. The one thing that I came away with
in comparing<BR>full scale to our airplanes is the speed of the
snap/rotation. In the full<BR>size aerobatics types that I observed
there was plenty of time to see the<BR>nose pitch and then after somewhat of
a hesitation yaw and rotate. In our<BR>pattern planes, especially when
using a snap switch, it all gets to be a<BR>blur due to sheer speed. I
have no solution to this issue but to MAKE the<BR>pilots show a break by
having severe downgrades. Otherwise the concept of a<BR>snap will be
ignored. Yes it's hard to see which makes it incumbent on the<BR>pilot
to present it to the judges. <BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of<BR>ronlock@comcast.net<BR>Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:26
PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How
I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>Here is a description that shows
technically correct snap execution, and<BR>valid, consistent judging is
possible.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>(Half of the District One guy need not read
this, they have already heard<BR>it)
<G><BR><BR> <BR><BR>At a small airport airshow, one of demos was
an in-trail formation of four<BR>full scale AT-6 Texans. As each
plane got to stage center, it did a single<BR>positive snap roll. Spectators
saw four snap rolls in a row, about 5
seconds<BR>apart.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>The flight of four went around, and
repeated the maneuver. Some spectators<BR>are getting bored - even a
pattern guy could get bored with a string of 8<BR>nearly identical
maneuvers. And then, they did it yet
again!!<BR><BR> <BR><BR>What's in this for us? The snap maneuver
by each AT-6 appeared to take a<BR>second or so, from initiation to
completion.<BR><BR>By the time the fourth plane did a snap, you could start
seeing....<BR><BR>- there is a nose pitch up, <BR><BR>-
then a yaw, <BR><BR>- then plane rolled in direction of
yaw,<BR><BR>- plane returned to straight and level
flight.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>By the time the flight came around for another
four snaps, you could see<BR>more details..<BR><BR>- there is a nose
pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least sudden for an AT-6)<BR><BR>-
then a large amount of yaw, <BR><BR>- then rapid roll in
direction of yaw, (rolling faster than it could with<BR>ailerons) <BR><BR>-
plane returned to fairly close straight and level, nose slightly
high.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>By the time the flight positioned for yet another
four snaps, (Yawn,<BR>spectators headed for cotton candy) the four distinct
elements of the snap<BR>roll maneuver were easy to see, and there was time
to evaluate (judge) each<BR>element.<BR><BR>1. there is a nose
pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least sudden for an<BR>AT-6, with
little rise in altitude)<BR><BR>2. then large amount of yaw, (the yaw
proceeds the upcoming roll)<BR><BR>3. then autorotation at rate
faster than it could do an aileron roll)<BR><BR>4. plane returns to
level flight track, with nose lowering to level
flight<BR>attitude.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>We can all be expert Snap Roll
Judges! Ahhh, at least for AT-6 snaps.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>What I
take from all of this-<BR><BR> <BR><BR>The problem is not snap
descriptions. It's the application of them;<BR>observation,
discrimination and judging of elements in the split second<BR>observation
time we have. Is the task beyond reasonable expectations of<BR>most of
us as a judging community? I suppose we will continue work
started<BR>over 10 years ago to improve in these
areas.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>In the meantime, shall we reduce the impact of
inconsistent judging of snaps<BR>by limiting the downgrade of the snap
portion of a maneuver to say..two<BR>points2?<BR><BR> <BR><BR>Ron
Lockhart<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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