<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>Hi Jim,</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Agree 100%. I lost track of all e-mails. I would like to read again Don's proposed simplified approach.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Thanks,<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Jim Woodward (US SSA)" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:02:03 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR></P>
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi Vicente,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I don’t think “speed” should be added in any form to the definition, wether its velocity, or rotational velocity. There should not be anything in the definition that makes the judge look for a particular piloting technique for execution. The judge shouldn’t care what technique the pilot used. The judge should only be concerned about the result. I like Don’s proposed simplified definition.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Jim W.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:56 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim,</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Shall we add speed change? I remember seen QQ practicing at the Nats when he had the Brio. It was clear that the plane speed changed substantially during the snap to a point that almost stop. It was interesting to see how he was adding power to recover during and after the snap. The speed reduction has been a common denominator when I see good snaps by other pilots. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Jim Woodward (US SSA)" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:46:00 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>Good points (again) Don. I like your simplified approach to defining the snap roll. Comparisons to full scale flying have no merit here at all. Some measure of autorotation is easily discernable by watching the nose and tail.<BR>Thanks,<BR>Jim W.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey<BR>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:35 AM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>I think part of our problem is the snap we define is not necessarily the<BR>snap the full scale pilots define. We need to fly to our definition and<BR>call it what we wish. Maybe get rid of the snap name! Judges should score<BR>the maneuver based on the pattern definition and not some definition they<BR>believe is correct. This applies to all the maneuvers in pattern. The name<BR>of a maneuver should have no bearing on how it is flown or judged. A good<BR>example of this is our definition of a snap into a spin. Maybe it's not a<BR>snap but it is what WE call it and the downgrade based on our definition is<BR>10 points. Real pilots and IMAC have nothing to do with pattern unless we<BR>want to change our focus.<BR><BR>Don<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Martin X.<BR>Moleski, SJ<BR>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:39 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>Budd Engineering wrote:<BR><BR>> ... The bottom line is this: we're not<BR>> stalling the wing when we do our snaps, not even a portion of it (unless<BR>> you're VERY low on airspeed at entry such as a spin).<BR><BR>And if you're doing a stall that slow, even if you do manage<BR>to get a "real" snap out of it, you're going to be downgraded<BR>for having your exit line below the entry line (I surmise).<BR><BR>> ... So the bigger question is should emulating a full-scale snap roll be a<BR>> pattern judging criterion or do we even care?<BR><BR>Departure in all three axes seems right to me: pitch, yaw, roll.<BR><BR>"If it's not a roll and it's not a barrel roll, then it's a snap roll."<BR><BR>I think the NSRCA should commission the fellow with the high-def<BR>cameras to do instruction tapes with real pilots flying maneuvers<BR>that the judging team judges to be "right." That might help.<BR><BR>> OK, it's really, really late out here on the left coast, I've gotta get<BR>> to bed. Shoot away.<BR><BR><BLAM!><BR><BR> Marty<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <BR>Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.14/2433 - Release Date: 10/13/09<BR>13:25:00<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</div></body></html>