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What are you supposed to "jab" when vertical? and why? There's no load
on wings or fuselage. <br>
The whole concept of jabbing elevator or rudder or ? to show a "pitch
break" reminds me of the old cheat of spin entry by "jabbing" down
elevator to show a stall. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
Woodward, Jim (US SSA) wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mark
– in that case you are supposed to “jab” the rudder to show
a pitch break in the horizontal plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Atwood,
Mark<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap
Judge (TIC)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hate
to jump into this…but does that mean that by definition the
Snap from knife edge starts at a 5 because there is NO way to see the
pitch
break??? Come on…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If
do, we got a lot of gravy scores this year. Although…if
we all started at 5…that would just lower the value of that maneuver
which is
what some were going for in this discussion. Maybe you are on to
something </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">J</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(118, 146, 60);">Mark Atwood</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><b><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Paragon
Consulting</span></i></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(84, 141, 212);"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a></span><span
style="color: rgb(84, 141, 212);"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: rgb(118, 146, 60);">IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff
Augmentation. </span></b><span style="color: rgb(118, 146, 60);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap
Judge (TIC)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: black;">Verne,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: black;">Following
AMA
description: if we don't see the break is 5 points downgrade.
That is 1/2 of the snap roll maneuver. Therefore, if we see the snap
roll but don't see the break the judge has the right to write down 5
points
score assuming that all other components are perfect. Therefore, base
on
the rule book the snap roll without a break has a value of 5 points. <br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</a><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Cc: "Don Ramsey" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:don.ramsey@suddenlink.net"><don.ramsey@suddenlink.net></a><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:14:02 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<br>
<br>
Is there anybody involved in this discussion that honestly can't
recognize a
snap when they see one? I'm just asking.....<br>
<br>
Verne<br>
<br>
<br>
---- Don Ramsey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:don.ramsey@suddenlink.net"><don.ramsey@suddenlink.net></a> wrote: <br>
> Vince,<br>
> <br>
> What about the next sentence in the FAI definition, “If the
stall/break
does not occur and the model aircraft barrel rolls<br>
> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).” <br>
> <br>
> How about if the break does not show and the model does NOT barrel
roll
around. Do you still downgrade by 5 or more points? I don’t know
what the intent of the rule was but I can tell you for a fact that the
judges
that only score FAI in Europe do not downgrade it by 5 or more points.
I
believe they use the “If it’s not a barrel and not an axial roll then
it’s
probably a snap, so judge it that way” because they have been
instructed in the
past to do it that way. <br>
> <br>
> Don<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> rom: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Vicente
"Vince"
Bortone<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:10 PM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<br>
> <br>
> Matt,<br>
> <br>
> I am copying the snap description from the current FAI and AMA
manuals.
I don't see the AND you mention in the FAI rule book. <br>
> See the important portion in bold. I see that the AMA description
is
better in this respect. You are correct in regard the downgrade in
FAI.
5 or more points if you don't see the break and the model barrel
rolls.
Therefore, what is the downgrade in FAI if the judge does not see the
break and
there is autorotation? I will say 5 points since it says 5 or more
points
if the model barrel rolls. Again, it appears that AMA down grad
descriptions
are better. <br>
> <br>
> FAI:<br>
> SNAP-ROLLS<br>
> A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative
roll where
the model aircraft is in a stalled<br>
> attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack<br>
> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as
start
and stop of the rotation, and<br>
> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.<br>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a
definite
break and separation from the<br>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft is
supposed to be in a stalled<br>
> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not
occur and
the model aircraft barrelrolls<br>
> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).
Similarly, axial<br>
> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more
than 5
points).<br>
> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same
criteria
apply. The attitude<br>
> (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If the
model
aircraft returns to an unstalled<br>
> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using
the 1 point/15 degree<br>
> rule.<br>
> <br>
> AMA:<br>
> Snaps: A Snap roll is a simultaneous, rapid autorotation in the
pitch, yaw
and roll axes of flight in a stalled wing attitude. The following
criteria
apply: <br>
> 1. Since the maneuver is defined as a stalled maneuver, initiated
by a
stall of the wing induced by a rapid change in pitch attitude, the nose
of the
fuselage must show a definite break in pitch attitude from the flight
path in
the direction of the snap (positive or negative) while the track
closely
maintains the flight path. The lack of a discernable pitch break is
downgraded
by 5 points. Large deviations from the flight path, indicative of a
delayed
stall, are to be downgraded using the 1 point per 15-degree rule for
each axis
of the excursion before stall. For example, it the model pitches 15
degrees
nose up and the wings rotate 15 degrees before the stall, the maneuver
should
be downgraded 1 point for pitch and 1 point for roll. <br>
> 2. The track visualized as the path of the Center of Gravity (CG)
should
closely follow the geometric flight path of the maneuver while the nose
and
tail auto rotate through opposite helical arcs around the flight path.
Lack of
these helical arcs (or coning) is indicative of an axial roll and is
scored
zero. <br>
> 3. If a stall does not occur and the model barrel rolls, the score
is
zero. A barrel roll can be identified when the CG, the nose, and tails
scribe
the same helical path through the required rotation of the maneuver <br>
> 4. Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far
as
start and stop of rotation, constant flight path through the maneuver
and
centering on lines. <br>
> 5. If the model returns to an unstalled condition during the
maneuver,
such that the autorotation is not visible and the model rolls or barrel
rolls
to complete the maneuver, it would be downgraded using the 1 point per
15
degree rule. <br>
> 6. Airspeed is not a criteria which should be used to judge this
maneuver.
The wing of the model is stalled during this maneuver; therefore a
significant
decrease in speed may occur and is not a cause for downgrade. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Matthew Frederick" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net"><mjfrederick@cox.net></a><br>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:47:30 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<br>
> <br>
> ? <br>
> While speaking with Don Ramsey about the nuances of judging snaps
at a
recent contest I found that he agreed with my interpretation of the FAI
snap
rule. The severe downgrade should only be applied if there is no break
AND
there is no autorotation (this is exactly what the rule says).
Basically, lack
of a break is not substantial grounds for the severe downgrade in FAI.
If the
break is not seen and autorotation still occurs at some point during
the roll
the one point per 15 degree rule applies. Since the snaps happen so
fast, for
me it's usually not more than 1 or 2 points unless it was blatantly
obvious
that the plane rotated a while before the snap truly began. It's the
same as if
you stop the snap before completing the rotation and do an axial roll
to
finish. This nonsense of people being so quick to apply a severe
downgrade has
gone too far. One element of a maneuver (because I can't think of any
sequence
that has just a snap roll) should not ruin a whole flight, or even that
one
maneuver unless it just wasn't a snap. I like the idea of "if it's not
a
barrell roll and not an axial roll, it's probably a snap."<br>
> <br>
> Matt<br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: Vicente <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"><mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net></a> "Vince"
Bortone <br>
> To: General pattern discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:12 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<br>
> <br>
> I believe that the current downgrade is severe. AMA 5 points.
FAI 5 or more points if my memory is correct. <br>
> <br>
> In local contest I have been using 3 points downgrade. I know
that
is wrong but it has been my best way for me to take into account the
break
issue. It used to be zero and it was changed to 5 points (IMAC still a
10
points downgrade or nada). Therefore, Ron is correct. Probably
makes sense to go 2-3 points downgrade if the judge can not see the
break
before rotation. <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "John Fuqua" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com"><johnfuqua@embarqmail.com></a><br>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:51:00 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<br>
> <br>
> Ron makes valid observation which I came to many years ago at the
TOC when<br>
> Mr. Bill graciously funded for full scale pilots like Patty
Wagstaff do
demo<br>
> flights to entertain us. The one thing that I came away with in
comparing<br>
> full scale to our airplanes is the speed of the snap/rotation. In
the full<br>
> size aerobatics types that I observed there was plenty of time to
see the<br>
> nose pitch and then after somewhat of a hesitation yaw and rotate.
In our<br>
> pattern planes, especially when using a snap switch, it all gets
to be a<br>
> blur due to sheer speed. I have no solution to this issue but to
MAKE the<br>
> pilots show a break by having severe downgrades. Otherwise the
concept of a<br>
> snap will be ignored. Yes it's hard to see which makes it
incumbent
on the<br>
> pilot to present it to the judges. <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</a><br>
> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:26 PM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge
(TIC)<br>
> <br>
> Here is a description that shows technically correct snap
execution, and<br>
> valid, consistent judging is possible.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> (Half of the District One guy need not read this, they have
already heard<br>
> it) <G><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> At a small airport airshow, one of demos was an in-trail formation
of four<br>
> full scale AT-6 Texans. As each plane got to stage center, it
did a
single<br>
> positive snap roll. Spectators saw four snap rolls in a row, about
5 seconds<br>
> apart.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> The flight of four went around, and repeated the maneuver. Some
spectators<br>
> are getting bored - even a pattern guy could get bored with a
string of 8<br>
> nearly identical maneuvers. And then, they did it yet again!!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> What's in this for us? The snap maneuver by each AT-6 appeared
to
take a<br>
> second or so, from initiation to completion.<br>
> <br>
> By the time the fourth plane did a snap, you could start seeing....<br>
> <br>
> - there is a nose pitch up, <br>
> <br>
> - then a yaw, <br>
> <br>
> - then plane rolled in direction of yaw,<br>
> <br>
> - plane returned to straight and level flight.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> By the time the flight came around for another four snaps, you
could see<br>
> more details..<br>
> <br>
> - there is a nose pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least sudden
for an AT-6)<br>
> <br>
> - then a large amount of yaw, <br>
> <br>
> - then rapid roll in direction of yaw, (rolling faster than it
could
with<br>
> ailerons) <br>
> <br>
> - plane returned to fairly close straight and level, nose
slightly
high.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> By the time the flight positioned for yet another four snaps,
(Yawn,<br>
> spectators headed for cotton candy) the four distinct elements of
the snap<br>
> roll maneuver were easy to see, and there was time to evaluate
(judge)
each<br>
> element.<br>
> <br>
> 1. there is a nose pitch up, (somewhat sudden, at least
sudden for an<br>
> AT-6, with little rise in altitude)<br>
> <br>
> 2. then large amount of yaw, (the yaw proceeds the upcoming roll)<br>
> <br>
> 3. then autorotation at rate faster than it could do an aileron
roll)<br>
> <br>
> 4. plane returns to level flight track, with nose lowering to
level
flight<br>
> attitude.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> We can all be expert Snap Roll Judges! Ahhh, at least for AT-6
snaps.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> What I take from all of this-<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> The problem is not snap descriptions. It's the application of
them;<br>
> observation, discrimination and judging of elements in the split
second<br>
> observation time we have. Is the task beyond reasonable
expectations
of<br>
> most of us as a judging community? I suppose we will continue
work
started<br>
> over 10 years ago to improve in these areas.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> In the meantime, shall we reduce the impact of inconsistent
judging of
snaps<br>
> by limiting the downgrade of the snap portion of a maneuver to
say..two<br>
> points2?<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Ron Lockhart<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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> <br>
> _____ <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
> Checked by AVG - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
> Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2428 - Release Date:
10/13/09
06:35:00<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date:
10/05/09
06:19:00</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
</blockquote>
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