<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18812">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The FAI folks have no interest in our problems or
solutions, they have troubles of their own. Our representation to the FAI
process is tiny. They are slow to react and even slower to admit there may be a
problem. If you get the opportunity to watch a FAI conducted event, be very
critical of the judging, the outcome as well as the elements. We have a better
game in the US than exists on an international level. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It is not necessary to ignore their rules but we
need to take advantage of the opportunity to improve and adjust where practical.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>More consistent judging and fewer ambiguous rules
are especially important goals. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> <BR>"Extremism in defense of liberty is
no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue."<BR>-Barry
Goldwater<BR>"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same
note."<BR>-Doug Floyd<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith
Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic
judging question (warning 3 letterword)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I know the USA centric thinkers won't like this, but I think we should
stay consistent with the FAI descriptions of the maneuver. Like it or not RC
Aerobatics is not that big of a pond. Why in the AMA (all one or two hundred
of us active Pattern fliers) do we have to have our own definitions? Many
countries ONLY fly FAI. It's cool that the AMA has it's own classes,
sequences, even event rules, but why have our own maneuver descriptions?
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Seems to me that we just create confusion for judges and pilots alike
when we have different maneuver descriptions from the rest of the world. If we
feel a description is poorly defined why not appeal to the FAI?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keith Black</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:16 PM, <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>"Maneuvers should be easy to judge and hard to
fly.</FONT>" An old and excellent concept!<BR><BR>We have been
working on describing a snap and judging them for lots of
years.<BR>Descriptions are pretty good. Judging consistently and
accurately is still not good.<BR>Guess we need to keep working on it, not
that we have not been trying.<BR><BR>In the meantime, do we continue using
maneuvers with snaps, knowing the judging is likely
inconsistent? There is an argument to be made; they need to stay
in schedules so pilots and judges can practice them.<BR><BR>While practice
goes on another X years, round scores continue to be heavily influenced by
the scores on high K snap maneuvers. We could fix most of that, by
assigning a low K to snap maneuvers. Got a better
idea?<BR><BR>Ron Lockhart<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "John
Ferrell" <<A href="mailto:jferrell13@triad.rr.com"
target=_blank>jferrell13@triad.rr.com</A>><BR>To: "General pattern
discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Friday,
October 9, 2009 12:04:51 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question<BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have always felt that if you cannot get
consistent judging on a maneuver it should no be in the
sequence...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Maneuvers should be easy to judge and hard to
fly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR> <BR>"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and
moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue."<BR>-Barry Goldwater<BR>"You
don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."<BR>-Doug
Floyd<BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
target=_blank>Bob Richards</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General
pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, October 08, 2009 1:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>It is unfortunate that we sometimes have to "adjust" our flying
to give the judges what they are looking for, even if what they are
looking for may be wrong. Unfortunately I always had
difficulty doing that. :-(</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/8/09, Vicente "Vince" Bortone <I><<A
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"
target=_blank>vicenterc@comcast.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Don,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the plane skid into the wind the lines can not be exactly
vertical and horizontal as described by both AMA and
FAI. Therefore, I am not sure how the 2 FAI pilots could be
correct. I guess that I have to follow your
recommendation to get better scores. <BR><BR>Vicente
"Vince"
Bortone<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>