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Try that knife edge snap without elevator. Try it near the ground to really get a good look. Let us know how that works out for you! :)<BR>
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Ed<BR>
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To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>CC: <BR>Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:41:56 +0000<BR>From: dunnaway@hbcomm.net<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR><BR>Just to add more fun to this discussion, How do you define the "pitch break" on the knife-edge to knife-edge snap in the F-09? :) What stalls, the fuselage or the wing?<BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Ed Alt" <ed_alt@hotmail.com><BR>Sent 10/11/2009 8:21:23 PM<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What if I add throttle on a 45 downline snap to keep the airspeed constant through the snap? That does not disqualify it as a snap. You can't use your impression of a momentary drop in airspeed as any kind of a reliable indicator that a snap was done.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pitch break, yawing motion need to be visible. Some line displacement is guaranteed and really doesn't deserve a downgrade unless it's severe. Yes, there's the trick of whapping opposite rudder as a lead to the snap onset to help fool judges who need to see the same exact track afterwards, but in reality that should get a downgrade. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, can you guarantee that because you saw some pitch break and yawing motion that it really was a snap? No, but I guarantee you that without it, it wasn't a snap. I don't mean to make this sound like I'm an expert at flying a perfect snap, but I know darned well what it is supposed to be.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:</STRONG> <A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>To:</STRONG> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yup and I do use that as an indicator. Remember the old Masters Reverse Avalanche? Sometimes the plane would actually almost stop moving right after the snap (if it was done correctly). If the plane cruises right through a "snap-roll" with no visible dissipation of energy, it's probably a twinkle.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com/">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:</STRONG> <A title=js.smith@verizon.net href="mailto:js.smith@verizon.net">Scott Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>To:</STRONG> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:03 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">So why don’t we use speed as a criteria? A true snap roll will slow the aircraft significantly. (It’s at least worth a mention the aircraft should decelerate in the description!) </SPAN></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <STRONG>On Behalf Of </STRONG>Ed Alt<BR><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:44 PM<BR><STRONG>To:</STRONG> General pattern discussion<BR><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">You can fake a snap just by adding some elevator and rudder, enough to get the tail to cone around. Fools a lot of judges.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday, October 11, 2009 6:14 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">No pitch break = no snap roll. It's not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an aerodynamic fact. If it's truly this hard to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ed</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Okay if you say so but what is it if it is not a barrel roll or an axial roll? Certainly it is a snap, and certainly there is a pitch break but it does not have to come before the rotation it can happen simoultaneously. I can fly level or vertical (up or down) or at any other angle in between and flip my elevator stick repeatedly from one end of a line to another and my plane does not stall (oops I know I should say the wing or wings do not stall) The arguement for a pitch break is fascious reguarding our models. I go ahead and do the bump prior to the snap if that is how the judges at that time want it, but to say that a plane did not snap just because there was not an initial pitch break does not equal actuality. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dan</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:45 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:12 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I know better than to enter this conversation but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a snap the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused problems. Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch break then what roll was it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel roll, nope not that either so low and behold it must have been a snap roll. We have all set in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have flown these maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or flown many true snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break, some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and others at times receive the zero. In the current Masters sequence the 45 degree downline snap for example. I have flown that manuever many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump and I have at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in either method the airplane performed a snap roll.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I have been flying pattern since the late sixties and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to recognize a stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for the life of me it seems that a stall turn is named very aptly.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Some of us live for the nitpicking discussions of stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a simple description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in our numbers.</SPAN> </P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dan Curtis</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47 AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed Alt" <<A href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR> </SPAN></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Don:</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I don't agree with that. You need to see a distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break, otherwise there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail coning" alone is not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can easily cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must occur in order for a real snap roll take happen. I think we should have a rule that most clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur for it to be a real snap, or just take them of sequences entirely. And of course, educate judges and pilots accordingly. Also, when you're a judge, don't be afraid to zero or severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented to you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of you.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Regards,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ed</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">Don Ramsey</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01 AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Ok, how about this for the snap? “If its not a barrel roll and not an axial roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging differences.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Don</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <STRONG>On Behalf Of </STRONG>Bob Richards<BR><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09 PM<BR><STRONG>To:</STRONG> General pattern discussion<BR><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question (warning 4 letter word)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria, just for the snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<BR><BR>--- On <STRONG>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell <EM><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></EM></STRONG> wrote:</P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal>? </P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I believe "</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is the only appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving up. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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