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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I already asked that question - last year.
:)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dunnaway@hbcomm.net href="mailto:dunnaway@hbcomm.net">dunnaway</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>Just to add more fun to this discussion, How do
you define the "pitch break" on the knife-edge to knife-edge snap in the
F-09? :) What stalls, the fuselage or the
wing?<BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Ed Alt"
<<A href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>Sent
10/11/2009 8:21:23 PM<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What if I add throttle on a 45 downline snap to
keep the airspeed constant through the snap? That does not disqualify it as a
snap. You can't use your impression of a momentary drop in airspeed as
any kind of a reliable indicator that a snap was done.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pitch break, yawing motion need to be
visible. Some line displacement is guaranteed and really doesn't deserve
a downgrade unless it's severe. Yes, there's the trick of whapping
opposite rudder as a lead to the snap onset to help fool judges who need to
see the same exact track afterwards, but in reality that should get a
downgrade. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, can you guarantee that because you saw some
pitch break and yawing motion that it really was a snap? No, but I
guarantee you that without it, it wasn't a snap. I don't mean to make this
sound like I'm an expert at flying a perfect snap, but I know darned well what
it is supposed to be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:</STRONG>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>To:</STRONG> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11,
2009 7:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yup and I do use that as an indicator.
Remember the old Masters Reverse Avalanche? Sometimes the plane would
actually almost stop moving right after the snap (if it was done correctly).
If the plane cruises right through a "snap-roll" with no visible dissipation
of energy, it's probably a twinkle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:</STRONG>
<A title=js.smith@verizon.net href="mailto:js.smith@verizon.net">Scott
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>To:</STRONG> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11,
2009 8:03 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">So
why don’t we use speed as a criteria? A true snap roll will slow the
aircraft significantly. (It’s at least worth a mention the aircraft
should decelerate in the description!) <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <STRONG>On Behalf Of
</STRONG>Ed Alt<BR><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:44
PM<BR><STRONG>To:</STRONG> General pattern
discussion<BR><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">You can fake a
snap just by adding some elevator and rudder, enough to get the tail to
cone around. Fools a lot of judges.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 6:14 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">No pitch
break = no snap roll. It's not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's
an aerodynamic fact. If it's truly this hard to judge, they should
simply be eliminated.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ed<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Okay if you
say so but what is it if it is not a barrel roll or an axial roll?
Certainly it is a snap, and certainly there is a pitch break but it does
not have to come before the rotation it can happen
simoultaneously. I can fly level or vertical (up or down) or at
any other angle in between and flip my elevator stick repeatedly from
one end of a line to another and my plane does not stall (oops I know I
should say the wing or wings do not stall) The arguement for a
pitch break is fascious reguarding our models. I go ahead and do
the bump prior to the snap if that is how the judges at that time want
it, but to say that a plane did not snap just because there was not
an initial pitch break does not equal actuality.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dan<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 5:45 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=warrior523@mchsi.com
href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 5:12 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I know
better than to enter this conversation but, but, well here
goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three types of
rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it
is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description
of a snap the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this
caused problems. Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll
without a leading pitch break then what roll was it, axial, nope
don't think so. Was it a barrel roll, nope not that either so
low and behold it must have been a snap roll. We have all set
in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have flown
these maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or
flown many true snap rolls that did not have a any visible
pitch break, some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and others at
times receive the zero. In the current Masters sequence the 45
degree downline snap for example. I have flown that manuever
many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump and I
have at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in
either method the airplane performed a snap
roll.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I have
been flying pattern since the late sixties and going all the way
back to then I have know and been able to recognize a stall turn and
its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for the life of
me it seems that a stall turn is named very
aptly.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Some of
us live for the nitpicking discussions of stalls and snaps and
wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a simple
description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived
perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in
our numbers.</SPAN> <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dan
Curtis</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed
Alt" <<A
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To:
"General pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Don:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
don't agree with that. You need to see a distinct pitch break and
yawing action to accompany the pitch break, otherwise there is no
real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail coning" alone is
not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can easily
cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled
wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps
because of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics
of what must occur in order for a real snap roll take
happen. I think we should have a rule that most clearly
accounts for the physics of what must occur for it to be a real
snap, or just take them of sequences entirely. And of
course, educate judges and pilots accordingly. Also, when
you're a judge, don't be afraid to zero or severely
downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented to
you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing
snaps when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front
of you.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Regards,</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ed</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>'General pattern discussion'</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Ok, how about this for
the snap? “If its not a barrel roll and not an axial roll,
it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the
description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging
differences.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Don</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <STRONG>On
Behalf Of </STRONG>Bob Richards<BR><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG>
Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09 PM<BR><STRONG>To:</STRONG>
General pattern discussion<BR><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question (warning 4 letter
word)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0
border=0>
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<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria,
just for the snap part of the manuever, would
suffice.<BR><BR>--- On <STRONG>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell
<EM><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></EM></STRONG>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV id=yiv1062628926>
<P class=MsoNormal>? <O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
believe "</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix
most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is
the only appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is
giving up. </SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR> <O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">No
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