<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>I kept a copy of the following e-mail. Probably is some years old (~2005). I believe will help in this discussion. I hope that Dave Lockhart does not mind since this was already in this opinion group. I think this could clarify some of the issues we have been discussing. It is clear to me that snap roll is very difficult to do properly and that is the reason of the high K-factor. Here is Dave's e-mail:</P><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>"I think Bjorn made an extremely good point and analogy comparing the 3 pt</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>shot to a snap.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think snaps are precision manuevers.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't think luck</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>with snaps is any different that luck with spin entry/exits or stall turn</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>entry/exits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All are difficult to consistently perform without downgrade</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(especially the snaps), and that is generally reflected in the KFactor</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(oops, another can of worms).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>The reason stall turns are often performed conservatively is simple - a zero</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>for a flopped stall turn is death - the scoring is usually so close at the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>top, that a single zero will take a pilot out of the running for the 1,000.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>I would say at the top levels, most pilots are 90+ % to complete a tight</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>radius stall turn (the one that appears to rotate on the CG, and is not</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>subject to a downgrade).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The same pilots are 99.9% to complete the slightly</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>open radius stall turn that will get the minor downgrade.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If we as a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>pattern community want to see less conservative stall turns, all we need to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>do is increase the point deduction for the slightly open radius stall turn -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the risk has to equal the reward, so to speak.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>To specifically answer the 2 questions you posed (my opinions of course) -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>1)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If it is indeed a true snap (and not a twinkle roll or barrel roll),</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>then it does add to the capabilities of the pilot.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>2)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Until we can achieve a level of consistency in judging snaps, they</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>detract from the event.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Now, the long part, including some of the "secrets".</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Airplane design -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>In general, in the early/mid 1990s, most designs migrated towards increased</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>pitch stability and damping (which is often but not always synonomous with</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>long tail moment).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This was great for groove/lock in corners and lines, but</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>not good snaps - and perhaps not a bad bias considering the relatively low</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>number of snaps in the pattern.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The increased pitch stability made it more</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>difficult to setup a plane to do good snaps (and spins).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The same designs</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>also generally migrated towards increased yaw stability (actually good for</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>snaps, bad for spins, others will not agree).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>My personal setups used as</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>much as 35 degrees of elevator to achieve consistent stall entries to snaps</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>and spins (and all of the elevator remained during the spin, but not during</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the snap) and 40 degrees of rudder in spins (ele/rud only spins).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In recent</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>years, the number of snaps in patterns have increased, and the newer designs</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>have shifted towards less pitch stability (and less yaw stability, but that</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>change is a response to the combined rolling/looping and rolling circle</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>maneuvers).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Airplane setup -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>This is critical with any design, and when a snap is attempted, a couple</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>things can happen -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- a good snap.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- a twinkle roll (not a snap).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- a barrel roll (not a snap).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>The majority of the setups I see are not sufficient to consistently perform</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>nice snaps.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Consistently meaning the setup is not very tolerant of</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>differing weather conditions (hot vs cold, snapping in/out of relative</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>wind), pilot techniques, or entry airspeeds.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have on more than one</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>occasion been asked to check a setup for snaps when the owner of the plane</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>was having problems with snaps.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In some instances, I've been able to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>consistently snap a plane with no changes to the setup, but improvements to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the setup made it easier for the owner to consistently snap the plane.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>below descriptions are generalizations based on my experience flying a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>variety of planes and observing a variety of planes and pilots from a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>variety of perspectives (amazing how much differently snaps look from</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>different perspectives).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And, the below does not take into acount the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>effects of wind on track and offer relative descriptions of control throws</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(exact control throws are influenced by design, weight, pilot technique,</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>etc).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The most critical setup element is pitch - if enough pitch authority</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>is not available, the break can not be achieved - the adjustment to make is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>more elevator throw, or a more rearward CG (and if neither work, the design</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>has too much stability in pitch to snap properly).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- The "twinkle" roll - The plane that has too little elevator, a little bit</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>of rudder, and a boatload of aileron.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Very common.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The plane has little or</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>no displacement from track (or the path is an extremely tight barrel) during</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the "twinkle" and returns to the original track with zero displacement or</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>deviation in track.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The rotation rate is probably equivalent to a full</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>stick deflection aileron roll (might be marginally higher due to a slight</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>assymetry in lift between wing panels caused by the minor amount of rudder</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>used).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The tail follows the nose exactly and no "cone" is inscribed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>advantage of flying a "twinkle" roll is that there is very little if any</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>loss in track, the entry is non-critical, airspeed loss in the "twinkle" is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>minimal, and the only variable the pilot needs to concentrate on is getting</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the wings level at exit.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As with the stall turn, it is a risk/reward</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>thing - why risk doing a real snap if the "twinkle" is getting scored?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>other benefit of the setup for a "twinkle" is that less elevator throw is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>used, and that makes the plane smoother in all other manuevers.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- The "barrel" roll - this one can be easy to see, or hard to distinguish</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>from a snap, and the setup that yields this result is often variable.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>A</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>very tight diameter barrel roll is hard to distinguish from a good snap</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>because it will exhibit a pitching element on entry and the plane will</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>displace from track in pitch and yaw during the snap, but will generally</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>return to track for full snaps (1, 2, 3....rotations) and generally remain</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>displaced of the track (in pitch and yaw) by the diameter of the barrel for</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>1/2 snaps (.5, 1.5, 2.5 ....rotations).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Very little if any cone inscription</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>is visible after the entry to the barrel.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The large diameter barrel has the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>same characteristics of tight diameter barrel, but easy to see, simply</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>because of the large diameter alone.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Any change in the control inputs</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>during the "barrel" are generally very easy to see - because the plane is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>not stalled and responds readily to any change in surface deflection.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Insufficient elevator to initiate the break is generally the cause of</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>barrels.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Adding aileron usually increases the rotation rate, and often</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>reduces the diameter.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Adding rudder may reduce the diameter of barrel,</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>increase the rotation rate, give the appearance of the inscription of a cone</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(but it is only in yaw, and not in pitch, and the airplane is not in a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>stalled condition), and may also add the look of a "cartwheel".<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The benefit</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>of the "barrel" setup is that less control throw is used (smoother in other</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>maneuvers), the rotation rate is slow (easier to hit exit) and the track is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>unchanged (but might be dispaced).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>- The "good" snap - I hope we know what it is in writing by now (actually</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>seeing it takes practice), so just some notes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Theoretically, the break can</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>occur without displacement in pitch - but this never happens in practice</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(angular acceleration, mass, and other physics properties are</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>real.........blame Newton).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>A good clean break (very fast elev servo and</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>fingers) will reduce the amount of track deviation and displacement in both</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>pitch and yaw.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The rotation rate of the snap will be marginally effected</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>(if at all) by low / high rate aileron - ailerons don't work very well when</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the plane is stalled.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Piloting Technique and more setup -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>To me, a good setup for snaps has a bigger "sweet" spot - the exact entry</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>airspeed and exact timing of the control inputs can vary and still yield a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>good snap.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the good setups "feel" the same whether snapping left or</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>right, positive or negative.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I fly with triple rates - normal flying is rud</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>on high, elev and ail on medium.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>For spins, everything is on high.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>For</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>snaps, I use a variety of rates setup to make the variety of snaps feel</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>balanced and I attempt to get the snaps from different perspectives in</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>different manuevers to "present" the same.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It takes a lot of time to setup.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>The technique for all types (different rotations in different attitudes) of</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>snaps is similar (lead with elevator, then rudder, then aileron) but the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>timing of each input usually varies a bit on both the addition and removal</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>of the inputs.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And each specific snap is usually a little different - I</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>"feel" the plane approaching the entry to the snap and try to gauge exact</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>airspeed, wind condtions, evaluate what the track is and if I want to change</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the track, etc.....and then I make very small changes to the addition of the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>inputs to get the desired effect (ie, I might use more elevator lead to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>change the track in pitch if the plane was diving slightly in pitch track</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>prior to the snap, or lower than usual on airspeed).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>During the snap</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>itself, I watch the progression of the snap and decide if I got the entry I</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>wanted (expected), and if I need to make any changes on the timing of the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>removal of control inputs on the exit of the snap (ie, maybe hold the same</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>rudder or imediately go to opposite rudder on the exit to immediately</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>correct a deviation in yaw track).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The more I fly, the better I can make</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>these adjustments because I seem to see things better, the snaps seem to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>take longer, my fingers seem to move faster, and I better know what the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>mental image of the plane should be at any instant during the snap.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>"Tells" and "cheats"</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>One of the easiest snaps to judge is the 45 downline snap (airplane is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>upright and executing a single positive snap).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The airplane is front and</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>center, and the break in pitch is easy to observe - and it is actually easy</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>to confirm.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Odds are, if you don't see a break, you will see the track of</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the line steepen as the airplane passes through 90 degrees of rotation -</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>because the rudder is now "bottom" rudder (and the plane is still flying, or</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>if snapping, the break was in yaw, not pitch), and the track of the plane</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>will be steeper than 45 degrees at the finish of the snap.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Kinda of odd to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>see a 45 downline get steeper after a positive snap??<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Big tell, and pretty</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>common to see.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I see the same thing on 1.5 snaps on a 45 downline.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>same thing also happens on 45 uplines when the line substantially flattens</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>out after the snap, but with an added variable - the flattening may be</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>partly due to reduced airspeed and gravity (but the plane will show the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>initial loss in track at the 90 degree point in rotation).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Exits - exits are generally judged more critically than entrances - for</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>snaps, rolls, and radii. A "cheat" to help with the exit of a snap is to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>take out elev and rud before the snap is complete - such that all the pilot</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>is doing is completing a roll to level flight, and completing a roll is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>easier than completing a snap - the tell is a substantial change in roll</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>rate (rotational inertia exists and for our models, the heavy wing monster</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>that appreciably demonstrates this is rare).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This type of cheat is also</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>employed on spin exists and on the exit of part and full rolls.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The roll</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>rate is slightly reduced as the rolling element nears completion to make it</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>easy to nail wings level.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Most judges will downgrade for the wings not</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>being level, fewer will catch the change in roll rate.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The same thing</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>applies to corner radii - they are often softer close to the exit to make it</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>easier to hit the line.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The reason the cheats are employed is because</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>downgrades are not being applied - "no whistle, no foul".</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>How do some guys maintain distance during the entire flight (including stall</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>manuevers) when flying in a crosswind?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They don't.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They are just sneaky at</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>hiding the wind drift, and make corrections / allowances where they are the</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>hardest to detect.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Humans having pretty poor depth perception at 150 meters</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>also helps.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This past fall, I had a trusted observer stand in the field</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>underneath my flight track and was told that the flight track was about 145</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>meters, +/- 3 meters (a bit more variation after spins).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the observer</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>was surprised to see how visible the rudder corrections were - as the same</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>observer saw far fewer rudder corrections when viewing similar flights as my</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>caller.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Prior to spins and stall turns, you will usually see a very small "cheat"</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>into the wind, and then a little drift with the wind allowed immediately</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>after the stall manuever, followed by a small "cheat" into the wind to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>return to the original track.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>A single 15 degree change in track is easy to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>see and downgrade.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Very aggressive compensation for wind (difference</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>between attitude and track) while technically correct rarely scores well.</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Three 5 degree changes in track are harder to see and harder to downgrade,</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>and present nicer (even if not as correct technically).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>With snaps - to hide the lateral displacement and yaw track change in a</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>snap, the "cheat" is normally opposite the direction of the snap prior to</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the snap entry - 5 degrees nose in before a snap and 5 degrees nose out</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>after the snap is harder to detect than simply being 10 degrees off after</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the snap.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And of late, there is no doubt in my mind that being 10 degrees</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>off before the snap will earn little or no deduction if the exit of the snap</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>is nailed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All deviations in roll, pitch, and yaw track should be equally</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>downgraded whether before or after the snap - it is a goal that needs to be</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>achieved.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The change in track during a snap can often be hidden (or</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>mitigated) to a large extent by wind - this is simply smart piloting by</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>choosing to snap into (usually) the wind.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And in the instance of a snap at</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>the end of the box, where the displacement or loss of heading in yaw is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>particuarly easy to see, a more pronounced and aggresive break in pitch can</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>be used to minimize the deviation in yaw, as the deviation in pitch is</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>harder to see (and thus harder to downgrade).</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Regards,</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>Dave</STRONG></FONT></PRE><PRE><A href="http://mailcenter.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/41D69A2E0002131900001A3822007348300C9D0A9B020A0C0790?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=DaveL322%40comcast%2Enet&sid=c0"><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG>DaveL322@comcast.net</STRONG></FONT></A>"</PRE><PRE><o:p><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT></o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana color=#14254b size=2></FONT></STRONG></o:p><BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Dan" <warrior523@mchsi.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 6:14:39 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR> <STYLE>P {
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No pitch break = no snap roll. It'</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>s not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an aerodynamic fact. If it'</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>s truly this hard to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Okay if you say so but what is it if it is not a barrel roll or an axial roll? Certainly it is a snap, and certainly there is a pitch break but it does not have to come before the rotation it can happen simoultaneously. I can fly level or vertical (up or down) or at any other angle in between and flip my elevator stick repeatedly from one end of a line to another and my plane does not stall (oops I know I should say the wing or wings do not stall) The arguement for a pitch break is fascious reguarding our models. I go ahead and do the bump prior to the snap if that is how the judges at that time want it, but to say that a plane did not snap just because there was not an initial pitch break does not equal actuality. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan</DIV></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com" target=_blank>Ed Alt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:45 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com" target=_blank>Dan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know better than to enter this conversation but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a snap the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused problems. Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch break then what roll was it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel roll, nope not that either so low and behold it must have been a snap roll. We have all set in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have flown these maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or flown many true snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break, some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and others at times receive the zero. In the current Masters sequence the 45 degree downline snap for example. I have flown that manuever many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump and I have at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in either method the airplane performed a snap roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have been flying pattern since the late sixties and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to recognize a stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for the life of me it seems that a stall turn is named very aptly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some of us live for the nitpicking discussions of stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a simple description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in our numbers.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dan Curtis</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed Alt" <<A href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com" target=_blank>ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree with that. You need to see a distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break, otherwise there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail coning" alone is not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can easily cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must occur in order for a real snap roll take happen. I think we should have a rule that most clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur for it to be a real snap, or just take them of sequences entirely. And of course, educate judges and pilots accordingly. Also, when you're a judge, don't be afraid to zero or severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented to you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ok, how about this for the snap?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>“If <SPAN class=SpellE>its</SPAN> not a barrel roll and not an axial roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging differences.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob Richards<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question (warning 4 letter word)</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria, just for the snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell <I><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>? </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I believe "</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is the only appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving up. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00</SPAN></P></DIV>
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