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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>That’s true….you
can hear a true snap.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:blue'>Regards<br>
<br>
Dave Harmon<br>
NSRCA 586<br>
K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net<br>
Sperry, Ok.</span></font><font color=blue><span style='color:blue'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Smith<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 11, 2009
7:03 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>So
why don’t we use speed as a criteria? A true snap roll will slow the
aircraft significantly. (It’s at least worth a mention the aircraft
should decelerate in the description!) </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 11, 2009
7:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You can fake a snap just by adding
some elevator and rudder, enough to get the tail to cone around. Fools a
lot of judges.</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com" title="warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 6:14 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>No pitch break = no snap roll.
It's not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an aerodynamic fact. If it's
truly this hard to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ed</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Okay if you say so but what is it if
it is not a barrel roll or an axial roll? Certainly it is a snap, and
certainly there is a pitch break but it does not have to come before the
rotation it can happen simoultaneously. I can fly level or vertical (up
or down) or at any other angle in between and flip my elevator stick repeatedly
from one end of a line to another and my plane does not stall (oops I know I
should say the wing or wings do not stall) The arguement for a pitch
break is fascious reguarding our models. I go ahead and do the bump prior
to the snap if that is how the judges at that time want it, but to say that a
plane did not snap just because there was not an initial pitch break does
not equal actuality. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dan</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com" title="ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 5:45 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com" title="warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 5:12 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I know better than to enter this
conversation but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about
the three types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll
the it is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a
snap the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused
problems. Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch
break then what roll was it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel
roll, nope not that either so low and behold it must have been a snap
roll. We have all set in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and
we have flown these maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or
flown many true snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break,
some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and others at times receive the
zero. In the current Masters sequence the 45 degree downline snap for
example. I have flown that manuever many many times and I have thrown in
the "required" pitch bump and I have at times neglected to do the
bump, but you know what, in either method the airplane performed a
snap roll.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I have been flying pattern since the
late sixties and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to
recognize a stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for
the life of me it seems that a stall turn is named very aptly.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some of us live for the nitpicking
discussions of stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others
just want a simple description and go out and fly or judge it to our
perceived perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in
our numbers.</span></font> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dan Curtis</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" title="vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
October 11, 2009 7:47 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Amen....<br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Ed Alt" <<a href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Don:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I don't
agree with that. You need to see a distinct pitch break and yawing action to
accompany the pitch break, otherwise there is no real evidence that
autorotation occurred. "Tail coning" alone is not even a reliable
indicator of a snap. You can easily cheat that to sell a
"snap". A snap is a stalled wing, autorotation
maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because of any line
displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must occur in order for
a real snap roll take happen. I think we should have a rule that most
clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur for it to be a real snap,
or just take them of sequences entirely. And of course, educate judges
and pilots accordingly. Also, when you're a judge, don't be afraid to
zero or severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented
to you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps
when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of you.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Regards,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Ed</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank" title="donramsey@gmail.com">Don
Ramsey</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Sunday, October 11,
2009 7:01 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Ok, how
about this for the snap? “If its not a barrel roll and not an axial roll,
it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the description. This
eliminates about 90% of the judging differences.</span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Don</span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, October 10, 2009
8:09 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
basic judging question (warning 4 letter word)</span></font></p>
</div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think changing the judging criteria, just for the
snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div id=yiv1062628926>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>? </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I believe "</span></font><font face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial'>We could fix most of that, by assigning a low K to
snap maneuvers" is the only appropriate solution. If you cast them out,
it is giving up. </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Ferrell W8CCW<br>
</span></font></p>
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