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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>No pitch break = no snap roll.
It'</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>s not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an
aerodynamic fact. If it'</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>s truly this hard
to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I know better than to enter this conversation
but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three
types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it
is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a snap
the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused problems.
Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch break then
what roll was it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel roll, nope
not that either so low and behold it must have been a snap roll. We have
all set in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have flown these
maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or flown many true
snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break, some are judged on our
1 to 10 scale and others at times receive the zero. In the current
Masters sequence the 45 degree downline snap for example. I have flown
that manuever many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump
and I have at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in
either method the airplane performed a snap roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have been flying pattern since the late sixties
and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to recognize a
stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for the life of
me it seems that a stall turn is named very aptly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Some of us live for the nitpicking discussions of
stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a
simple description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived
perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in our
numbers.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dan Curtis</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed Alt" <<A
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To: "General
pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't agree with that. You need to see a
distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break,
otherwise there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail
coning" alone is not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can
easily cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled
wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because
of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must
occur in order for a real snap roll take happen. I think we should
have a rule that most clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur
for it to be a real snap, or just take them of sequences entirely. And
of course, educate judges and pilots accordingly. Also, when you're a
judge, don't be afraid to zero or severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or
whatever is being presented to you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't
be afraid of zeroing snaps when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat
in front of you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ok,
how about this for the snap?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>“If <SPAN class=SpellE>its</SPAN> not a barrel roll and not an
axial roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the
description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging
differences.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob
Richards<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic
judging question (warning 4 letter word)</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria, just for
the snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat,
10/10/09, John Ferrell <I><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></I></B>
wrote:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV id=yiv1062628926>
<P class=MsoNormal>? </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I believe
"</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix
most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is the only
appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving up.
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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