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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>You can fake a snap just by adding some elevator
and rudder, enough to get the tail to cone around. Fools a lot of
judges.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 6:14
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>No pitch break = no snap roll.
It'</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>s not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an
aerodynamic fact. If it'</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>s truly this hard
to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Okay if you say so but what is it if it is not a barrel roll or an axial
roll? Certainly it is a snap, and certainly there is a pitch break but
it does not have to come before the rotation it can happen
simoultaneously. I can fly level or vertical (up or down) or at any
other angle in between and flip my elevator stick repeatedly from one end of a
line to another and my plane does not stall (oops I know I should say the wing
or wings do not stall) The arguement for a pitch break is fascious
reguarding our models. I go ahead and do the bump prior to the snap if
that is how the judges at that time want it, but to say that a plane did not
snap just because there was not an initial pitch break does not equal
actuality. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I know better than to enter this conversation
but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the
three types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell
roll the it is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the
description of a snap the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this
caused problems. Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a
leading pitch break then what roll was it, axial, nope don't think
so. Was it a barrel roll, nope not that either so low and behold it
must have been a snap roll. We have all set in a judging chair and
watched snap manuevers and we have flown these maneuvers. We can all
say that we have seen and or flown many true snap rolls that did not
have a any visible pitch break, some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and
others at times receive the zero. In the current Masters sequence
the 45 degree downline snap for example. I have flown that manuever
many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump and I have
at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in
either method the airplane performed a snap roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have been flying pattern since the late
sixties and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to
recognize a stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I
for the life of me it seems that a stall turn is named very
aptly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Some of us live for the nitpicking
discussions of stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions,
others just want a simple description and go out and fly or judge it
to our perceived perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be
decreasing in our numbers.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dan Curtis</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed Alt"
<<A
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To:
"General pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't agree with that. You need to see a
distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break,
otherwise there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail
coning" alone is not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can
easily cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled
wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps
because of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics of
what must occur in order for a real snap roll take happen. I think
we should have a rule that most clearly accounts for the physics of what
must occur for it to be a real snap, or just take them of sequences
entirely. And of course, educate judges and pilots
accordingly. Also, when you're a judge, don't be afraid to zero or
severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented to
you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps
when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009
7:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ok,
how about this for the snap?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>“If <SPAN class=SpellE>its</SPAN> not a barrel roll and not an
axial roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the
description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging
differences.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Bob Richards<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question (warning 4 letter
word)</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<TABLE
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vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria, just
for the snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<BR><BR>--- On
<B>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell
<I><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV id=yiv1062628926>
<P class=MsoNormal>? </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
believe "</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix most of
that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is the only
appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving up.
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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