<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>What I want to see judged is when people roll the last half or 3/4 of a snap. It is obvious when its done but I think if people see the pitch break they will score it regardless of what happens afterwards. I saw multiple people do this in Masrers and FAI this year. In fact after round 3 of the masters finals when the raws came back and we saw the scores I did it in round 4 and scored higher on my Avalanche and 45 down and Ill admit I rolled the last half. 2 judges scored me the same, but 2 others scored me higher. One was half a point different. If we are going to pay attention to the break then the rest of the snap counts too. <br><br></div><div>Arch<br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Oct 11, 2009, at 5:12 PM, "Dan" <<a href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">warrior523@mchsi.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I know better than to enter this conversation but,
but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three types of
rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it is a snap
roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a snap the
requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused problems. Now tell
me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch break then what roll was
it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel roll, nope not that either
so low and behold it must have been a snap roll. We have all set in a
judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have flown these
maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or flown many true
snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break, some are judged on our 1
to 10 scale and others at times receive the zero. In the current Masters
sequence the 45 degree downline snap for example. I have flown that
manuever many many times and I have thrown in the "required" pitch bump and I
have at times neglected to do the bump, but you know what, in
either method the airplane performed a snap roll.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I have been flying pattern since the late sixties
and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to recognize a
stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I for the life of
me it seems that a stall turn is named very aptly.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Some of us live for the nitpicking discussions of
stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a simple
description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived
perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in our
numbers.</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dan Curtis</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="vicenterc@comcast.net" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Amen....<br><br>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Ed Alt" <<a href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com"><a href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</a></a>><br>To: "General
pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></a>><br>Sent:
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Don:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I don't agree with that. You need to see a
distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break, otherwise
there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail coning" alone is
not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can easily cheat that to
sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled wing, autorotation
maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because of any line
displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must occur in order for
a real snap roll take happen. I think we should have a rule that most
clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur for it to be a real snap,
or just take them of sequences entirely. And of course, educate judges
and pilots accordingly. Also, when you're a judge, don't be afraid to
zero or severely downgrade a wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented
to you if it's not a real snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps
when it's a big name trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of
you.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Ed</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="donramsey@gmail.com" href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">Don Ramsey</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">'General
pattern discussion'</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Snap</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ok,
how about this for the snap?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>“If <span class="SpellE">its</span> not a barrel roll and not an axial
roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the description.
This eliminates about 90% of the judging differences.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span></span> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a></a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob
Richards<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09 PM<br><b>To:</b>
General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] basic
judging question (warning 4 letter word)</span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal">I think changing the judging criteria, just for the
snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<br><br>--- On <b>Sat,
10/10/09, John Ferrell <i><<a href="mailto:jferrell13@triad.rr.com">jferrell13@triad.rr.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div id="yiv1062628926">
<p class="MsoNormal">? </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I believe
"</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We could fix
most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is the only
appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving up.
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John Ferrell
W8CCW<br> </p></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">No virus
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