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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No pitch break = no snap roll.
It'</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>s not a matter of anyone's opinion, it's an
aerodynamic fact. If it'</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>s truly this hard
to judge, they should simply be eliminated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Okay if you say so but what is it if it is not a barrel roll or an axial
roll? Certainly it is a snap, and certainly there is a pitch break but it
does not have to come before the rotation it can happen simoultaneously. I
can fly level or vertical (up or down) or at any other angle in between and flip
my elevator stick repeatedly from one end of a line to another and my plane does
not stall (oops I know I should say the wing or wings do not stall) The
arguement for a pitch break is fascious reguarding our models. I go ahead
and do the bump prior to the snap if that is how the judges at that time want
it, but to say that a plane did not snap just because there was not an
initial pitch break does not equal actuality. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=warrior523@mchsi.com href="mailto:warrior523@mchsi.com">Dan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know better than to enter this conversation
but, but, well here goes. Don, I agree with your post about the three
types of rolls. If it is not axial and it is not a barrell roll the it
is a snap roll. Some one at some time put in the description of a snap
the requirement of a ptich break. Man has this caused problems.
Now tell me if a plane does a snap roll without a leading pitch break then
what roll was it, axial, nope don't think so. Was it a barrel roll,
nope not that either so low and behold it must have been a snap roll.
We have all set in a judging chair and watched snap manuevers and we have
flown these maneuvers. We can all say that we have seen and or
flown many true snap rolls that did not have a any visible pitch break,
some are judged on our 1 to 10 scale and others at times receive the
zero. In the current Masters sequence the 45 degree downline snap for
example. I have flown that manuever many many times and I have thrown
in the "required" pitch bump and I have at times neglected to do the bump,
but you know what, in either method the airplane performed a snap
roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have been flying pattern since the late
sixties and going all the way back to then I have know and been able to
recognize a stall turn and its difference from a hammerhead turn. I
for the life of me it seems that a stall turn is named very
aptly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some of us live for the nitpicking discussions
of stalls and snaps and wording in maneuver descriptions, others just want a
simple description and go out and fly or judge it to our perceived
perfection. Is it any wonder we seem to be decreasing in our
numbers.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dan Curtis</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Amen....<BR><BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ed Alt"
<<A href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To:
"General pattern discussion" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:33:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Don:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree with that. You need to see a
distinct pitch break and yawing action to accompany the pitch break,
otherwise there is no real evidence that autorotation occurred. "Tail
coning" alone is not even a reliable indicator of a snap. You can
easily cheat that to sell a "snap". A snap is a stalled
wing, autorotation maneuver. Also, the tendency to downgrade snaps because
of any line displacement goes entirely against the physics of what must
occur in order for a real snap roll take happen. I think we should
have a rule that most clearly accounts for the physics of what must occur
for it to be a real snap, or just take them of sequences entirely.
And of course, educate judges and pilots accordingly. Also, when
you're a judge, don't be afraid to zero or severely downgrade a
wiffle snap, or whatever is being presented to you if it's not a real
snap. Especially don't be afraid of zeroing snaps when it's a big name
trying to sneak a snap cheat in front of you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:01
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ok,
how about this for the snap?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>“If <SPAN class=SpellE>its</SPAN> not a barrel roll and not an
axial roll, it’s a snap.” Maybe have the coning of the tail in the
description. This eliminates about 90% of the judging
differences.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Don</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Bob Richards<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:09
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] basic judging question (warning 4 letter
word)</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>I think changing the judging criteria, just for
the snap part of the manuever, would suffice.<BR><BR>--- On
<B>Sat, 10/10/09, John Ferrell
<I><jferrell13@triad.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV id=yiv1062628926>
<P class=MsoNormal>? </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
believe "</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">We
could fix most of that, by assigning a low K to snap maneuvers" is
the only appropriate solution. If you cast them out, it is giving
up. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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