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<P>Yes, I agree that unknowns might add an interesting twist to pattern. Probably for Advanced and Masters would be very interesting. In this way, we have more to do when waiting for the sun to move out. </P>
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<P>I also agree to all your comments below. In conclusion, if you fly IMAC using the same principles we use to fly pattern you will have very high chances to do well. Clearly, you did. </P>
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<P>In regard sound, that is becoming a huge issue. I believe that there is a group that is suggesting to do sound test as prescribed in the rulebook in all contests.</P>
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<P>Yes, partial rolling circles are introduced in the Intermediate class. As we know, there is not way to do rollers by rolling fast. IMAC is missing to introduce the slow roll in Sportsman's class. I am not sure why since IAC includes the slow roll.</P>
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<P>We arrive to the same conclusion. We had fun. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Stuart Chale" <schale@optonline.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:16:40 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns<BR><BR>I didn't mean for this to be an IMAC vs pattern discussion. Guess it was inevitable. I brought it up because I though unknowns might add an interesting twist to a pattern contest.<BR><BR>My thoughts on IMAC vs Pattern. Yes IMAC places a lot of emphasis on spins and snaps. I lost a lot of points due to my spin entries (some forced to spin on center)<BR>Sound score too subjective.<BR>ACS score not well described, also subjective. On the other hand I practiced the basic IMAC pattern in a pattern box and flew it like that at the contest. Generally flying a bit further out than the IMAC guys, using both ends of "my" box and trying to center all of the center maneuvers. I scored 17 10's 2 8's and 1 9 on the ACS scores. Looking at several other scores in all classes (all scores are posted on the IMAC site for every contest) showed me that they liked it. Most other pilots did not score as high in the ACS scores. <BR>Lack of centering or positioning. I don't understand it at all. A center maneuver should be centered for the highest score. I suspect putting my center maneuvers on center helped the ACS score however. Many pilots performed maneuvers too close to the flight line and geometry could not be seen. I am not sure what is taught in the judging schools about this.<BR>Some maneuvers do allow different radii in some places many do not. minor point. Most of the rest of the geometry is very similar, 45 degree lines are strictly grades, placing rolls center of lines, wing overs, are clearly downgraded, pendulum swings on stall turns etc.<BR>No slow rolls :(, integrated rolls in loops do not have an angular or rolling speed requirement just need to be centered, also :(<BR>Classes are more bottom heavy. Sequences in advanced and unlimited are down right hard. The advanced sequence is harder than out Masters sequence. <BR>Rolling circles or part of circles are introduced in the intermediate class I believe (3rd class or 5)<BR><BR>Is it different? Yes, Do I agree with everything the way they do it? No, Was it interesting having a 2 meter plane be dwarfed by over 20 other planes at the field? Yes, Did I have fun? Absolutely<BR><BR>Stuart C.<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone wrote: </P>
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<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I fly IMAC Intermediate class since many years ago. Probably 1-2 contest per year because contest is too far from KC. Jim is very close in his description. However, I found that if you fly with the same goals we fly in pattern you will have very high chance to win in IMAC. The rules are very close (read the snap roll and you will be surprised how close is to pattern AMA and F3A, IMAC and IAC). I think the Sportsman’s IMAC pilots get stuck in that class because they have to fly partial rollers in Intermediate IMAC without learning to do slow roll first. Looks like IMAC don't want to do slow roll because is a pattern maneuver. If you check the IAC maneuvers you will find that they have slow roll. In conclusion, I believe we have very close goals but we are always looking for ways to find differences when really there is not a huge difference after we read the rulebooks. </SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">By the way, I am using soft mount in my YAK (DA 100 with canisters and 3 lade prop). One time I got to a contest and started the engine to get ready. A couple of pilots in the other side of the field came to ask me if my motor was electric. IMAC guys do not use soft mounts just because pattern guys use soft mounts. It is similar to the elimination of center manuevers to the judges. The excuse to eliminate center manuevers was because IMAC goal is to reduce the footprint. However, I don't understand how you reduce the footprint without doing the center manuever in the center. Go and figure. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</SPAN></P>
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<P>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "mike mueller" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:mups1953@yahoo.com" target=_blank><mups1953@yahoo.com></A><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:57:05 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns<BR><BR> Wow Jim that is the best explaination of the difference I've ever seen. Thanks for that post I will save it and use it again.<BR> I'd love to try IMAC someday but it's a time and resource problem to do so at this point. We have a number of IMAC guys at my field and I like them all. I find we have a lot in common but your right about the differences too. Thanks, Mike Mueller<BR><BR>--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" target=_blank><jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A> wrote:<BR><BR>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" target=_blank><jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A><BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns<BR>> To: "General pattern discussion" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:46 AM<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Unknowns in pattern? IMAC<BR>> versus pattern? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> I’ve flown a bunch of<BR>> IMAC over the last 4 years. <BR>> IMAC and Pattern answer two different questions, and each<BR>> group has DISTINCTLY different<BR>> personalities. At the end of a pattern contest, you<BR>> will see who flew the<BR>> sequences the best (usually the best pilot). At the<BR>> end of an IMAC<BR>> contest, you will get closer to seeing who the best pilot<BR>> is in that<BR>> class. There are pros and cons for each, each fitting<BR>> the personalities<BR>> of the groups. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Pattern: Is about<BR>> learning the fundamentals of precision<BR>> flight. Group is not too excited about changing sequences<BR>> too often, especially<BR>> for the lower classes. It is a pattern-truth that the<BR>> lower classes are<BR>> designed to build piloting skill and teach precision<BR>> aerobatics fundamentals<BR>> (wings level and such). This group recognizes that<BR>> guys don’t get<BR>> to fly every day, and the goal is “fly your sequence<BR>> the best you can.” <BR>> Lower classes are not considered “destination”<BR>> classes. <BR>> Pattern guys almost 100% of the time can get into Advanced<BR>> and Masters, with<BR>> F3A being hit or miss. Pattern guys believe it is<BR>> “fair” that<BR>> the competition is only the “known”<BR>> sequences because this<BR>> levels the playing field – anyone can compete because<BR>> we know what is<BR>> going to be flown ahead of time, and the tier-2 kind of<BR>> pilot has a competitive<BR>> chance against tier-1 pilot, per se’. <BR>> Pattern guys want to<BR>> know what the rules are, and then build a plane within the<BR>> rules and maximize<BR>> what they can. Pattern guys are open, and keep all<BR>> contests open to<BR>> whoever can make it. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> IMAC: almost 100%<BR>> opposite to the pattern<BR>> personality. Guys don’t like rules! Do<BR>> not want rules applied<BR>> to planes (… no support for even adequate mufflers or<BR>> tuned<BR>> pipes/silencers). Not willing to “describe”<BR>> airspace or where<BR>> maneuvers are flown (read ACS definition if like and let us<BR>> know what the criteria<BR>> is). IMAC does not encourage moving up in the way the<BR>> culture of pattern<BR>> does – plenty of guys in IMAC will fly Basic or<BR>> Sportsman for many<BR>> years. Intermediate is realistically the destination<BR>> class. Few<BR>> make it into Advanced, and less into Unlimited. IMAC<BR>> guys want to fly new<BR>> sequences every year, and this sort of offsets the<BR>> motivation for moving<BR>> up. IMAC guys have some affinity for<BR>> “freestyle” and<BR>> undisciplined flying – they like that you don’t<BR>> have to practice<BR>> the know sequence all the time. All you need to do is<BR>> keep “close”<BR>> in the knowns, and score a high unknown round and you can<BR>> win the contest due<BR>> to the higher weighting the unknown round carries. <BR>> IMAC guys don’t<BR>> really focus on getting better geometry out of<BR>> maneuvers - as hitting<BR>> snap rolls will make or break you IMAC score. Using<BR>> the 0.5/point per 5<BR>> degree rule, “snap-rolls” are in fact the whole<BR>> secret to scoring<BR>> IMAC patterns well – it is a maneuver within a<BR>> maneuver and you need to<BR>> learn how your plane snaps at low speed, high speed,<BR>> power-on, and<BR>> power-off. If you can’t hit a snap roll exit,<BR>> don’t even<BR>> think about getting into Advanced or Unlimited. This<BR>> group likes “exclusivity”<BR>> or “invitational” events, and this also makes<BR>> its way into the<BR>> regional championships. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> So – there are totally<BR>> different personalities at work for<BR>> both organizations. I like flying unknowns, but I<BR>> don’t think it is<BR>> a good mix for precision aerobatics events. <BR>> Guys moved from F3A into<BR>> Masters to get away from the two known sequences, so I<BR>> don’t think<BR>> unknowns for the AMA classes really fits into the culture,<BR>> or our goals of “precision”<BR>> aerobatics. <BR>> <BR>> Thanks, <BR>> <BR>> Jim <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From:<BR>> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> [<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On<BR>> Behalf Of Anthony<BR>> Romano<BR>> <BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:50 AM<BR>> <BR>> To: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Hi Stu,<BR>> <BR>> Did you happen to find out how they deal with the<BR>> scoring? If it is<BR>> national and everyone is using the same program maybe<BR>> an update could be<BR>> available for the CD to download prior to the event?<BR>> <BR>> One thing I noticed was a lot of judges<BR>> with the aresti in one<BR>> hand and score sheet in the other while judging. Lots of<BR>> looking away during<BR>> the flight. I looked over a few shoulder and would have put<BR>> down some similar<BR>> numbers.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Anthony<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:42:06 -0400<BR>> <BR>> > From: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:schale@optonline.net" target=_blank>schale@optonline.net</A><BR>> <BR>> > To: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns<BR>> <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> > OK don't kick me off the list but I flew an IMAC<BR>> contest last weekend. <BR>> <BR>> > (yes in Basic with a pattern plane :) )<BR>> <BR>> > Has any thought been given to flying unknowns as the<BR>> IMAC guys do? If <BR>> <BR>> > you are not familiar with it, on a 2 day contest the<BR>> unknown is handed <BR>> <BR>> > out after flying is done on the first day. The unknown<BR>> is appropriate <BR>> <BR>> > for your class and is the same nationwide for that<BR>> weekend. You are on <BR>> <BR>> > an honor system not to fly it or use a sim (I suspect<BR>> some people do) <BR>> <BR>> > and the first flight of day 2 is the unknown. I<BR>> believe it can not be a <BR>> <BR>> > dropped round. Basic class flies their usual sequence<BR>> no unknown. It <BR>> <BR>> > adds a bit of excitement to the 2nd day of the<BR>> contest. You have to be <BR>> <BR>> > able to do a bunch of maneuvers not in this years<BR>> sequence but <BR>> <BR>> > appropriate for the class. So practice time might be<BR>> more than 6 <BR>> <BR>> > identical flights of your current sequence. And most<BR>> importantly it may <BR>> <BR>> > provide for some separation for the top fliers in each<BR>> class. I had a <BR>> <BR>> > lot of fun discussing the sequences with my friends<BR>> that were there, and <BR>> <BR>> > watching and listening to them after flying it. Hard<BR>> to fly a sequence <BR>> <BR>> > for the first time without making a significant<BR>> error.<BR>> <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> > Stuart<BR>> <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> > _______________________________________________<BR>> <BR>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <BR>> > <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <BR>> ><BR>> <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Insert<BR>> movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. 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