<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">I don't have big money, heck, or small money, but I spent a small fortune to go if you calculate a week and a half off of work without pay as I am self employed. I think most people spend quite a bit to go. Heck, look at the planes. 3-5 grand for an airframe. I don't think money is the issue people won't go. Especially another $25-50-100. I paid $200 to go this year. lol (late entry) haha<br><br>I agree, it's hard to depend on volunteers, but there are plenty of Intermediate folk who don't get to judge just because they are intermediate folk. I don't agree with this. But they could run the weigh in day easily. Even success... hmmm, well, I don't see the event successful if the event is run with inconsistencies in judging, or weighing and then there is all the controversy and talk after it. <br><br>We should all be talking about how much fun we had. Heck,
I did. Was really fun to fly in the winds IMO. I usually don't fly in them at home. It was fun to work hard on Z distance IMO. It was fun going to the museum and looking at all the cool stuff there, and old old Kfactors. It was fun getting to see people that I consider movie stars (my version of Hollywood is the pattern guys that I read about in the Kfactor). People that I would normally not ever meet, but that I have really come to like through the nats. The dinners, the banquet, the Nsrca meeting, the foamy flying, and chatting with guys in the hotel lobby, and much more, all a great time. <br><br>Without change, we wouldn't be typing on the computers right now, we'd be sending letters on horseback. It's time to try to fix things IMO. Give it a chance. It could be worthwhile to not have these discussions after next years nats. lol<br><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div>
<div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, Chris Moon <i><cjm767driver@hotmail.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Chris Moon <cjm767driver@hotmail.com><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 8:05 PM<br><br><div id="yiv1567658493">
I'm with you on that Chris. I would honestly pay $200+ no problem if
that would solve some of the issues. I guess the question is, where is
the balance line between an open entry national event and a country
club type $$ event where only those willing to part with the big money
will enter? I don't have any idea. The current method relies on
volunteers and you can only ask so much from volunteers before they are
no longer volunteers - they are at home instead. And I consider
someone who is getting a few $$ per hour compensation to be essentially
a volunteer.<br>
<br>
People like Derek who are willing to volunteer is awesome but we can't
base the event's success on the expectation of having lots of Derek
clones willing to help in all of these areas every year. Plus lots of
Derek clones might be too much for some to take... :)<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
krishlan fitzsimmons wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign="top">The $100 that we pay for the entry is small potatoes
compared to what we spend on the nats. Think about the time off work,
all the practice leading up, the expenses. I estimate that with the
time I took off work, and everything else that it cost me about (well I
won't say, or I will get crucified on here, lol). Raise my rate to $200
and pay someone to weigh planes. Pay some judges. Pay some zero judges.
Pay for a few more days so that everyone gets equal exposure judging.
Whatever has to be done to make it fair for all. Why settle for "well,
it's sorta ok the way it is, not perfect, but ok" when we can change
it? I can't understand why people don't want to make it better. <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif"><br>
<br>
<div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, Derek Koopowitz <i><a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com"><derekkoopowitz@gmail.com></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>
From: Derek Koopowitz <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com"><derekkoopowitz@gmail.com></a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv79311386">Rules are rules and we should enforce
them for everyone - not just the select few that make the finals. I
would bet that the majority of everyone that attends the Nats is
compliant with the rules we have today.<br>
<br>
Chris: I don't have any problems working to process planes - I think
the time would be fun to meet all the attendees and say hi. I don't
normally get to do that and this will give me an opportunity to meet
everyone. I'm also not looking to do this in lieu of my judging duties
either... I view my judging assignment as an essential part of
attending the Nats and look forward to it every time. If someone is
going to cheat by replacing servos or whatever just to make weight then
shame on them... perhaps Chad's solution is the best one to weigh
planes after they fly but that just makes the logistics even harder I
think since we don't have the enclosed tents to do this and also enough
scales etc. for each site.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:29 PM, John
Konneker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow">jlkonn@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Not the point I was trying to make.<br>
Please reread the last two sentences of my note below.<br>
ONLY legal planes would make the finals, semifinals and place if the
procedure that has been in place were followed.<br>
Respectfully,<br>
JLK<br>
<br>
<hr>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:24:22 -0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
<div>Then why even bother to have the rules? How about
noise and size? Should we eliminate those rules as well? No one checks
weight, size and noise locally... so why should we bother having a rule
for it and enforcing it at the Nats?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't buy it that attendance will diminish.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM, John Konneker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow">jlkonn@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>I have to agree with Chris.<br>
As someone has pointed out there are basically two types that attend
the Nats.<br>
Those that go to renew friendships and for the social aspects and those
that are trying to win.<br>
I have been told by more than one pilot attending that they aren't
concerned about their plane<br>
being overweight since they have no chance of making the finals or
placing and are there for the fun.<br>
I think you will see an even further decrease in attendance if everyone
gets weighed at checkin.<br>
The way it has been til now would be fine IF it was followed and
enforced.<br>
Otherwise it's just more search for the guilty, punish the innocent.<br>
JLK<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:57:03 -0400<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
I think we are making this more difficult than necessary (not aimed at
anyone in particular - I just jumped in on Chris's response). We go
through the process of weighing the potential winners and finalists
already - why not just mandate that the officials APPLY the rule that
already exists. No lee way or interpretation necessary. Why weigh and
measure if we are going to say "oh never mind, that's ok" when they
fail inspection. If they had applied the existing rule, this discussion
would not be going on. To implement a new procedure (weighing all at
check in) is going to need a bunch of extra help to do and do we really
want to have somebody inventory EVERY item on the plane too in order to
ensure they don't change props, wheels, rx battery, etc after
inspection? Who is going to volunteer to do that to 100+ airplanes? The
current way has worked just fine and would still be fine IF THE RULE AS
IT EXISTS WAS APPLIED. Simple. Let's not make an overly elaborate witch
hunt in response to what happened.<br>
<br>
Chris (the other one)<br>
<br>
<br>
krishlan fitzsimmons wrote:
<blockquote>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-family: inherit;" valign="top">Where
do they weigh at a worlds event? Outside in the wind?<br>
<br>
Just curious. <br>
<br>
Thx!<br>
<br>
<div><b><i><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></i></b></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, <a rel="nofollow">dkrev@shaw.ca</a> <i><a rel="nofollow"><dkrev@shaw.ca></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>
From: <a rel="nofollow">dkrev@shaw.ca</a> <a rel="nofollow"><dkrev@shaw.ca></a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <a rel="nofollow"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:30 PM<br>
<br>
<div>We got weighed after each round at the
worlds..... Just saying :-)<br>
Sent from Dave's Crackberry<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Fuqua <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http:///mc/compose?to=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com">johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:35:25 <br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http:///mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
<br>
Better be prepared to weigh 4 or 5 sets of batteries with each
competitor as<br>
well as airplanes. <br>
<br>
That's the thing with glow. Only dry weight counts. You can load as much<br>
fuel as you wish to any weight! Electric stuck at a fixed max T.O.
Weight.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http:///mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http:///mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Derek<br>
Koopowitz<br>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:37 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
I don't see an issue with this... we will put a sticker on all items<br>
including all packs that a competitor will use. If a competitor really<br>
wants to cheat then they will do it... nothing we can do will stop that.<br>
I'm also hoping that random inspections will keep people honest and the
fear<br>
that if you do fail then you will be disqualified.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jay Marshall <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http:///mc/compose?to=lightfoot@sc.rr.com">lightfoot@sc.rr.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have some concern that the proposals put forward will really work.<br>
If the plane is inspected at check-in then there is too much
opportunity to<br>
change things. In particular, batteries, which are a normally removable<br>
item, can be changed to decrease on increase the weight. Do we
"sticker" the<br>
battery pack? This means the plane must be disassembled for inspection
and<br>
that only that battery pack can be used. At present fuel tanks can also
be<br>
under/over filled to adjust ballast for windy conditions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If this is a serious problem, perhaps there are other solutions. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Planes could be placed in an impound/inspection area immediately<br>
before a flight and fully fueled. The inspection could happen here and<br>
shouldn't delay the flow of the contest.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Another possibility is to adopt a "standard" weight for a battery<br>
pack, then weigh electric planes empty. The "standard" could change as<br>
technology changes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As John Pavlick will tell you, all major race winners undergo a<br>
teardown and inspection.<br>
<br>
Jay Marshall <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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