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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Why don’t we eliminate the weight
limit and keep the size and noise limits. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I haven’t heard a good argument as
to why keeping the weight limit is a good idea.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>If you want to fly a 2 meter lead weight
then go for it. <span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Why will removing
the weight limit negatively effect future technology <span class=GramE>development.</span>
<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>It won’t it will just redirect
future technology development. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Maybe we will learn that lighter planes
don’t necessarily fly better.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>
</span>Maybe it will spur future development of gasoline engines for the
pattern community.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>This of coarse couldn’t
apply to FAI.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Maybe the FAI thing
is the real issue but I believe there is ample room for pattern planes designed
to meet the AMA rule and those designed to meet the FAI rules.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>After all there are far more AMA pattern
flyers than FAI flyers.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Some are
already floating ideas about changing the weight interpretations. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span class=GramE>Lets</span> take it all
the way and remove the weight limit altogether.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My 2 cents.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>krishlan fitzsimmons<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 03, 2009
10:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Inspection & Weighing</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>The $100 that we pay
for the entry is small potatoes compared to what we spend on the nats. Think
about the time off work, all the practice leading up, the expenses. I
estimate that with the time I took off work, and everything else that it cost
me about (well I won't say, or I will get crucified on here, lol). Raise my
rate to $200 and pay someone to weigh planes. Pay some judges. Pay some zero
judges. Pay for a few more days so that everyone gets equal exposure judging.
Whatever has to be done to make it fair for all. Why settle for "well,
it's sorta ok the way it is, not perfect, but ok" when we can change it?
I can't understand why people don't want to make it better. <img width=18
height=18 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf" face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF;font-weight:
bold'>Chris </span></font></i></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 8/3/09, Derek Koopowitz <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><derekkoopowitz@gmail.com></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv79311386>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Rules are rules and we
should enforce them for everyone - not just the select few that make the
finals. I would bet that the majority of everyone that attends the Nats is
compliant with the rules we have today.<br>
<br>
Chris: I don't have any problems working to process planes - I think the time
would be fun to meet all the attendees and say hi. I don't normally get to do
that and this will give me an opportunity to meet everyone. I'm also not
looking to do this in lieu of my judging duties either... I view my judging
assignment as an essential part of attending the Nats and look forward to it
every time. If someone is going to cheat by replacing servos or whatever just
to make weight then shame on them... perhaps Chad's solution is the best one
to weigh planes after they fly but that just makes the logistics even harder
I think since we don't have the enclosed tents to do this and also enough
scales etc. for each site.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:29 PM, John Konneker <<a
href="/mc/compose?to=jlkonn@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com">jlkonn@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Not the point I was
trying to make.<br>
Please reread the last two sentences of my note below.<br>
ONLY legal planes would make the finals, semifinals and place if the
procedure that has been in place were followed.<br>
Respectfully,<br>
JLK<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:24:22 -0700<br>
From: <a href="/mc/compose?to=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
To: <a href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Then why even bother to have the rules? How about
noise and size? Should we eliminate those rules as well? No one checks
weight, size and noise locally... so why should we bother having a rule for
it and enforcing it at the Nats?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I don't buy it that
attendance will diminish.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM, John Konneker <<a
href="/mc/compose?to=jlkonn@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:jlkonn@hotmail.com">jlkonn@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have to agree with
Chris.<br>
As someone has pointed out there are basically two types that attend the
Nats.<br>
Those that go to renew friendships and for the social aspects and those that
are trying to win.<br>
I have been told by more than one pilot attending that they aren't concerned
about their plane<br>
being overweight since they have no chance of making the finals or placing
and are there for the fun.<br>
I think you will see an even further decrease in attendance if everyone gets
weighed at checkin.<br>
The way it has been til now would be fine IF it was followed and enforced.<br>
Otherwise it's just more search for the guilty, punish the innocent.<br>
JLK<br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:57:03 -0400<br>
From: <a href="/mc/compose?to=cjm767driver@hotmail.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
I think we are making this more difficult than necessary (not aimed at anyone
in particular - I just jumped in on Chris's response). We go through the
process of weighing the potential winners and finalists already - why not
just mandate that the officials APPLY the rule that already exists. No lee
way or interpretation necessary. Why weigh and measure if we are going to say
"oh never mind, that's ok" when they fail inspection. If they had
applied the existing rule, this discussion would not be going on. To
implement a new procedure (weighing all at check in) is going to need a bunch
of extra help to do and do we really want to have somebody inventory EVERY
item on the plane too in order to ensure they don't change props, wheels, rx
battery, etc after inspection? Who is going to volunteer to do that to 100+
airplanes? The current way has worked just fine and would still be fine IF
THE RULE AS IT EXISTS WAS APPLIED. Simple. Let's not make an overly elaborate
witch hunt in response to what happened.<br>
<br>
Chris (the other one)<br>
<br>
<br>
krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit'>Where do they weigh at a
worlds event? Outside in the wind?<br>
<br>
Just curious. <br>
<br>
Thx!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf" face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Chris </span></font></i></b><font
face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 8/3/09, <a
href="/mc/compose?to=dkrev@shaw.ca" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca">dkrev@shaw.ca</a> <i><span style='font-style:
italic'><a href="/mc/compose?to=dkrev@shaw.ca" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca"><dkrev@shaw.ca></a></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit'><br>
From: <a href="/mc/compose?to=dkrev@shaw.ca" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca">dkrev@shaw.ca</a> <a
href="/mc/compose?to=dkrev@shaw.ca" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:dkrev@shaw.ca"><dkrev@shaw.ca></a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <a
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>We got weighed after each round at the worlds.....
Just saying :-)<br>
Sent from Dave's Crackberry<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Fuqua <<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow>johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:35:25 <br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
<br>
Better be prepared to weigh 4 or 5 sets of batteries with each competitor
as<br>
well as airplanes. <br>
<br>
That's the thing with glow. Only dry weight counts. You can load as much<br>
fuel as you wish to any weight! Electric stuck at a fixed max T.O. Weight.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a
href="http://mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" rel=nofollow>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Derek<br>
Koopowitz<br>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:37 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing<br>
<br>
I don't see an issue with this... we will put a sticker on all items<br>
including all packs that a competitor will use. If a competitor really<br>
wants to cheat then they will do it... nothing we can do will stop that.<br>
I'm also hoping that random inspections will keep people honest and the
fear<br>
that if you do fail then you will be disqualified.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jay Marshall <<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=lightfoot@sc.rr.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow>lightfoot@sc.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have some concern that the proposals put forward will really work.<br>
If the plane is inspected at check-in then there is too much opportunity to<br>
change things. In particular, batteries, which are a normally removable<br>
item, can be changed to decrease on increase the weight. Do we
"sticker" the<br>
battery pack? This means the plane must be disassembled for inspection and<br>
that only that battery pack can be used. At present fuel tanks can also be<br>
under/over filled to adjust ballast for windy conditions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If this is a serious problem, perhaps there are other solutions. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Planes could be placed in an impound/inspection area immediately<br>
before a flight and fully fueled. The inspection could happen here and<br>
shouldn't delay the flow of the contest.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Another possibility is to adopt a "standard" weight for a battery<br>
pack, then weigh electric planes empty. The "standard" could
change as<br>
technology changes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As John Pavlick will tell you, all major race winners undergo a<br>
teardown and inspection.<br>
<br>
Jay Marshall <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
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