<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-style: italic;">Equal exposure takes time we usually don’t
have. We lower the cut-off point to ensure that the top fliers in contention
for winning make the finals.<br><br></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Then why does anyone go to the nats. Shouldn't only the top flyers go? <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif"> haha<br><br>On another note, who fly's morning's next year. LMAO.. lol <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif"><img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif"><br><br>I'm starting to get a laugh out of the nats.. lol<br></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-style: italic;"></span><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <i><atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></i></b>
wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:28 PM<br><br><div id="yiv1998682835">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As someone who’s goal this year was to make the FAI Semi Finals,
I understand your point completely.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The problem is that all you’re really doing by changing systems
is shifting the accuracy from spots 6,7 & 8 to 11,12 & 13. Bad seeding
will still result in those positions being a coin toss. An unknown flyer, or
one that has not been to the Nationals in years, does not usually get “seeded”
and can mess up the whole game (with regard to that 12<sup>th</sup> spot…not as
far as picking a champion or even the top 6). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bottom line, anything but equal exposure will always make the
cut-off positions subject to error. Equal exposure takes time we usually don’t
have. We lower the cut-off point to ensure that the top fliers in contention
for winning make the finals. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m not really sure what else can be done.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>krishlan
fitzsimmons<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2009 3:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding: 0in;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">My opinion may be a little
different, but similar Mark. <br>
An example, Mike Mueller flew against Tony all week. Flew excellent, but
didn't make the finals. My opinion, he should have. The way our system works
(or doesn't work) caused this IMO. Mike, like myself and many others, spent a
lot on the nats, and if it isn't fair, why go? Well, it's a great time for
sure. And it's great to see all you guys! But we need a system to allow us to
be judged fairly. We would never run this kind of system at a local contest,
so why do we do it at the nats, our most prestigious contest? Could you see
it at a local? Ok, you two guys fly in front of those judges, and you other 2
guys fly in front of two other judges, and so on. Why did FAI want equal
exposure this year? My guess is because they had less entries, yes, but
because our system doesn't work right, and I'm sure they know it. Would the
outcome have been different if they ran it different? Maybe, maybe not. But I
sure feel the Masters outcome would have been had we had equal exposure. And
if Intermediate, and Advanced would have had a finals, I feel the outcome may
have changed a little. <br>
<br>
We discussed this some at the contest this weekend, and doing Jerry's system,
with taking the top 3 in each group, then flying 3 and keeping the best 2
rounds would work pretty well, and not much more time. That way, the top 8
will make the finals regardless of their grouping inconsistencies. Unless we
can get equal exposure like FAI did this year. That is the best system. Just
a thought. <br>
<br>
Where I differ I think in our thoughts Mark, is that I go to try to make the
finals. Then I would be satisfied. 8th place is good to me at the nats right
now. Yes we are trying to pick a national champion. But to some of us lesser
talented flyer's, we are battling for, and proud of 5th, 6th, 7th, and
8th. <img id="_x0000_i1025" src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif"><br>
<br>
In the long run, whatever happens, happens. The point of the whole discussion
is to bring about new and possibly format changing ideas that we all may find
hope in and try those ideas. Change is good sometimes. With the high amount
of intelligence amongst our group, we ought to be able to figure out a way to
do this IMO. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color: rgb(0, 0, 191);">Chris </span></b></em></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <i><atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></i></b>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:06 AM</p>
<div id="yiv2107976736">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This
is really the ONLY issue at hand. Proper seeding becomes vital to both
formats. In the Matrix system, two “weaker” (no bashing, just being
honest) groups will normalize very high to one another on the day they fly
against each other knocking out some of the pilots from the other
groups who are forced to always normalize against one of the stronger pilots
(in this years case that was Arch and Frak). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
4 mini contests does a better job with the math (your at least not trying to
force normalization with equal exposure) but in contrast, the idea of taking
the top 2 or 3 from each group assumes that one group won’t have 4 of the
best pilots. Not the best assumption given the inconsistent attendance
that many have at the nats. No way to seed beyond the top 3-4 people
that we have experience with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In
both cases…people have to stay true to the “Goal”. Which is really to
make sure that the top 3 guys make the finals. We’re trying to pick the
National Champion, not the 5,6,7 and 8<sup>th</sup> place guys. Taking
8 to the finals in EITHER format does a good job of ensuring that the top 3
are in the finals and have a fair, well judged event to choose the champion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
think any format we choose is likely to err when it comes to the 8,9,10 place
individuals. That would be a problem if we were only taking 3 to the
finals. The idea of taking 8 purposely mitigates that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It’s
even less of an issue in FAI where 20 fly in a full exposure format to choose
the finalists and they still take 8 to choose the top guys. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek
Koopowitz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2009 1:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Seeding
would be very critical in this just like seeding is critical in the current
matrix system as well. I'll give you a good example... had Glen Watson
showed up wouldn't that have affected some pilots in his group? With
Glen not being there that group became an "easy" group and the
normalized scores reflected that relative to the other groups. I'm not
trying to diminish anyone's flying efforts here but I think the ED should
adjust the flying groups based on attendance if necessary in order to level
the playing field for everyone.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">On
Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mark Hunt <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">flyintexan@att.net</span></u></a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">I
too would like to see an article on this. No offense, but initially it
is unclear to me how this would give any better exposure of pilots to the
same judges/conditions than the current matrix system allows for. Would
seeding not become even more critical in this scenario?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Mark</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Anthony Romano <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</span></u></a>> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"><br>
<b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Monday, August 3,
2009 11:56:34 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><br>
Maybe Jerry could detail this in a Kfactor article. Perhaps could be
used at locals to help with an oversized Masters group.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
</p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Date:
Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:45:19 -0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</span></u></a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Jerry
Budd had a good suggestion in running 4 mini-contests for 6 rounds where each
pilot would fly against their group for 6 straight rounds and then the top 3
from each group would fly in the finals. I'm leaning toward this
because the current format does not work. We also need to do something
about FAI - because there isn't equal exposure there either.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">On
Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:41 PM, John Fuqua <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</span></u></a>> wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Every
Nats I went to that had all events in 2 weeks ended up screwing<br>
Pattern out of time or space. It never failed. I am against it
even<br>
thought I liked to go see other events. We cannot do a first rate job
when<br>
we compete for runway space and days to fly.<br>
<br>
I thought AMA wanted to reduce Nats costs. Moving them around does not
do<br>
that if you look at history and read up you will find a consistent comment<br>
about reducing Nats costs. NPAC was fully funded by the pilots and it
cost<br>
more than a typical Nats so factor that in.<br>
<br>
No one has addressed the equal exposure to judges issues for the current<br>
format yet and Mike's proposal does not correct that situation for Masters.<br>
I had one person suggest to me that if we continue to use the Matrix system<br>
that we take the top 3 pilots from each "Group" to a 3 round
finals. At<br>
least then we have equal judging exposure and more or less equal weather<br>
exposure per round.<br>
<br>
John</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a>]
On Behalf Of Tony<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:56 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br>
<br>
That is a possibility also. AMA is thinking about returning the NATS to
a 2<br>
week all-events NATS like used to be done. If all events are together,
HQ<br>
can put all costs into one effort. If they are all split up, Each group<br>
would have more costs to deal with due to the fact that HQ can't send a<br>
group of people to every site.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony Stillman, President<br>
<br>
Radio South, Inc.<br>
<br>
139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
<br>
Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
<br>
1-800-962-7802<br>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"><u><span style="color: blue;">www.radiosouthrc.com</span></u></a><br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a><br>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a>]
On Behalf Of Tim Taylor<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:39 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It was done, It was called NPAC<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tim<br>
<br>
--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bill's Email <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">wemodels@cox.net</span></u></a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Bill's Email <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">wemodels@cox.net</span></u></a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll -
Relocate the Nats in<br>
2010?<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a rel="nofollow"><u><span style="color: blue;">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a>><br>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 2:06 PM<br>
<br>
Why not allow the SIGS to do their own thing? IMAC
and NSRCA do not<br>
need to share a site. The LSF can find a site for the soaring NATS. Pylon<br>
knows what venues work for them and so on. FF can do their own thing as<br>
well. Why tie soaring and FF together and so on??<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony wrote:<br>
<br>
Matt:<br>
Yes, it is just difficult to tell if it is
actually feasible. The<br>
problem is that it requires a large site for Pattern/Pylon/IMAC and will<br>
require another large site for Soaring/Outdoor FF. It may be very
difficult<br>
to actually find places that can handle this group.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony Stillman, President<br>
<br>
Radio South, Inc.<br>
<br>
139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
<br>
Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
<br>
1-800-962-7802</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"><u><span style="color: blue;">www.radiosouthrc.com</span></u></a> <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"><u><span style="color: blue;">http://www.radiosouthrc.com/</span></u></a>></p>
<div>
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<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Checked by
AVG - www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.27/2258 - Release Date: 08/03/09
05:57:00</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">No virus
found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2279 - Release Date: 08/03/09
05:57:00</span></p>
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</div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><br><div class="plainMail">_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>