<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">My opinion may be a little different, but similar Mark. <br>An example, Mike Mueller flew against Tony all week. Flew excellent, but didn't make the finals. My opinion, he should have. The way our system works (or doesn't work) caused this IMO. Mike, like myself and many others, spent a lot on the nats, and if it isn't fair, why go? Well, it's a great time for sure. And it's great to see all you guys! But we need a system to allow us to be judged fairly. We would never run this kind of system at a local contest, so why do we do it at the nats, our most prestigious contest? Could you see it at a local? Ok, you two guys fly in front of those judges, and you other 2 guys fly in front of two other judges, and so on. Why did FAI want equal exposure this year? My guess is because they had less entries, yes, but because our system doesn't work right, and I'm sure they
know it. Would the outcome have been different if they ran it different? Maybe, maybe not. But I sure feel the Masters outcome would have been had we had equal exposure. And if Intermediate, and Advanced would have had a finals, I feel the outcome may have changed a little. <br><br>We discussed this some at the contest this weekend, and doing Jerry's system, with taking the top 3 in each group, then flying 3 and keeping the best 2 rounds would work pretty well, and not much more time. That way, the top 8 will make the finals regardless of their grouping inconsistencies. Unless we can get equal exposure like FAI did this year. That is the best system. Just a thought. <br><br>Where I differ I think in our thoughts Mark, is that I go to try to make the finals. Then I would be satisfied. 8th place is good to me at the nats right now. Yes we are trying to pick a national champion. But to some of us lesser talented flyer's, we are battling for, and proud of
5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th. <img src="http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif"><br><br>In the long run, whatever happens, happens. The point of the whole discussion is to bring about new and possibly format changing ideas that we all may find hope in and try those ideas. Change is good sometimes. With the high amount of intelligence amongst our group, we ought to be able to figure out a way to do this IMO. <br><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <i><atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements<br>To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:06 AM<br><br><div id="yiv2107976736">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This is really the ONLY issue at hand. Proper seeding
becomes vital to both formats. In the Matrix system, two “weaker”
(no bashing, just being honest) groups will normalize very high to one another on
the day they fly against each other knocking out some of the pilots from
the other groups who are forced to always normalize against one of the stronger
pilots (in this years case that was Arch and Frak). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The 4 mini contests does a better job with the math (your at least
not trying to force normalization with equal exposure) but in contrast, the idea
of taking the top 2 or 3 from each group assumes that one group won’t
have 4 of the best pilots. Not the best assumption given the inconsistent
attendance that many have at the nats. No way to seed beyond the top 3-4
people that we have experience with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In both cases…people have to stay true to the “Goal”.
Which is really to make sure that the top 3 guys make the finals. We’re
trying to pick the National Champion, not the 5,6,7 and 8<sup>th</sup> place
guys. Taking 8 to the finals in EITHER format does a good job of
ensuring that the top 3 are in the finals and have a fair, well judged event to
choose the champion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think any format we choose is likely to err when it comes to
the 8,9,10 place individuals. That would be a problem if we were only
taking 3 to the finals. The idea of taking 8 purposely mitigates that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It’s even less of an issue in FAI where 20 fly in a full
exposure format to choose the finalists and they still take 8 to choose the top
guys. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek
Koopowitz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2009 1:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Seeding would be very critical in this just like seeding is
critical in the current matrix system as well. I'll give you a good
example... had Glen Watson showed up wouldn't that have affected some pilots in
his group? With Glen not being there that group became an
"easy" group and the normalized scores reflected that relative to the
other groups. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's flying efforts here but
I think the ED should adjust the flying groups based on attendance if necessary
in order to level the playing field for everyone.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mark Hunt <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:flyintexan@att.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=flyintexan@att.net">flyintexan@att.net</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I too would like to see an article on this. No
offense, but initially it is unclear to me how this would give any better
exposure of pilots to the same judges/conditions than the current matrix system
allows for. Would seeding not become even more critical in this scenario?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mark</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Anthony Romano <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a>>
</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"><br>
<b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Monday, August 3,
2009 11:56:34 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Maybe Jerry could detail this in a Kfactor article. Perhaps could be
used at locals to help with an oversized Masters group.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
</p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:45:19
-0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry Budd had a good suggestion in running 4 mini-contests
for 6 rounds where each pilot would fly against their group for 6 straight
rounds and then the top 3 from each group would fly in the finals. I'm
leaning toward this because the current format does not work. We also
need to do something about FAI - because there isn't equal exposure there
either.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:41 PM, John Fuqua <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com">johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Every Nats I went to that had all events in 2 weeks ended up
screwing<br>
Pattern out of time or space. It never failed. I am against it even<br>
thought I liked to go see other events. We cannot do a first rate job
when<br>
we compete for runway space and days to fly.<br>
<br>
I thought AMA wanted to reduce Nats costs. Moving them around does not do<br>
that if you look at history and read up you will find a consistent comment<br>
about reducing Nats costs. NPAC was fully funded by the pilots and it
cost<br>
more than a typical Nats so factor that in.<br>
<br>
No one has addressed the equal exposure to judges issues for the current<br>
format yet and Mike's proposal does not correct that situation for Masters.<br>
I had one person suggest to me that if we continue to use the Matrix system<br>
that we take the top 3 pilots from each "Group" to a 3 round finals. At<br>
least then we have equal judging exposure and more or less equal weather<br>
exposure per round.<br>
<br>
John</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Tony<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:56 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br>
<br>
That is a possibility also. AMA is thinking about returning the NATS to a
2<br>
week all-events NATS like used to be done. If all events are together, HQ<br>
can put all costs into one effort. If they are all split up, Each group<br>
would have more costs to deal with due to the fact that HQ can't send a<br>
group of people to every site.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony Stillman, President<br>
<br>
Radio South, Inc.<br>
<br>
139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
<br>
Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
<br>
1-800-962-7802<br>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/">www.radiosouthrc.com</a><br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Tim
Taylor<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:39 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It was done, It was called NPAC<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tim<br>
<br>
--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bill's Email <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:wemodels@cox.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=wemodels@cox.net">wemodels@cox.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Bill's Email <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:wemodels@cox.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=wemodels@cox.net">wemodels@cox.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll -
Relocate the Nats in<br>
2010?<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 2:06 PM<br>
<br>
Why not allow the SIGS to do their own thing? IMAC
and NSRCA do not<br>
need to share a site. The LSF can find a site for the soaring NATS. Pylon<br>
knows what venues work for them and so on. FF can do their own thing as<br>
well. Why tie soaring and FF together and so on??<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony wrote:<br>
<br>
Matt:<br>
Yes, it is just difficult to tell if it is actually
feasible. The<br>
problem is that it requires a large site for Pattern/Pylon/IMAC and will<br>
require another large site for Soaring/Outdoor FF. It may be very difficult<br>
to actually find places that can handle this group.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony Stillman, President<br>
<br>
Radio South, Inc.<br>
<br>
139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
<br>
Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
<br>
1-800-962-7802</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/">www.radiosouthrc.com</a>
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