<div>Good points Mike...</div>
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<div>I would agree that there isn't a perfect system... but there is a better system. We should strive to improve the system with the resources that we have and within the constraints that we are dealt with. Running a 4 round Masters finals is not possible with 12 pilots. Again, not all the details have been flushed out but we could even do a cut (just like in golf) so that if the total of your 1st two rounds of finals is not within n% of 1st place then you don't continue, or even if you aren't in the top 6 after 2 rounds you don't advance - you're essentially finished with your finals flying.</div>
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<div>There are several different methods of paring down the initial list once the finals do start - the trick is finding the correct one (or best one).<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:01 PM, michael s harrison <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I want to make 3 points. </span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><span>1.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Seeding is absolutely critical</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><span>2.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">There is no perfect system</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><span>3.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">There are very limited resources and personnel</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Seeding is the key to any worthwhile system. It is imperative that pilots are seeded at least thru the top ten. It will be rare indeed if somehow that didn’t get the job done. All this is about the last couple of pilots making or not making the cut to the finals. Favorites or otherwise not making the cut happens in every kind of competition. No matter what system we design, there will be those that feel they were short changed. </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">There is no perfect system, whether you choose the old system or Jerry’s or anyone else’s. I personally think the system in place is as good as any. No matter the system there is an element of good fortune involved for some and bad fortune for others. </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Increasing the pilot pool in the finals to 12 people is overbearing. That becomes 48 flights or more than 8 hours. The way it is presently done, that would be about a 12 hour day. That is absurdly long and impractical. If you look at what you have it could be changed to 10 pilots with 3 rounds in the finals and that would that about 5 hours actual flying time, maybe 6 hours total. About half the time. Also, 3 judging panels instead of 4. One less break. Less work for everyone. </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2009 1:06 PM
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<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</div></div></span>
<p></p></p></div></div>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">This is really the ONLY issue at hand. Proper seeding becomes vital to both formats. In the Matrix system, two “weaker” (no bashing, just being honest) groups will normalize very high to one another on the day they fly against each other knocking out some of the pilots from the other groups who are forced to always normalize against one of the stronger pilots (in this years case that was Arch and Frak). </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The 4 mini contests does a better job with the math (your at least not trying to force normalization with equal exposure) but in contrast, the idea of taking the top 2 or 3 from each group assumes that one group won’t have 4 of the best pilots. Not the best assumption given the inconsistent attendance that many have at the nats. No way to seed beyond the top 3-4 people that we have experience with.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">In both cases…people have to stay true to the “Goal”. Which is really to make sure that the top 3 guys make the finals. We’re trying to pick the National Champion, not the 5,6,7 and 8<sup>th</sup> place guys. Taking 8 to the finals in EITHER format does a good job of ensuring that the top 3 are in the finals and have a fair, well judged event to choose the champion.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I think any format we choose is likely to err when it comes to the 8,9,10 place individuals. That would be a problem if we were only taking 3 to the finals. The idea of taking 8 purposely mitigates that.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">It’s even less of an issue in FAI where 20 fly in a full exposure format to choose the finalists and they still take 8 to choose the top guys. </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 03, 2009 1:57 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p></div>
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<p>Seeding would be very critical in this just like seeding is critical in the current matrix system as well. I'll give you a good example... had Glen Watson showed up wouldn't that have affected some pilots in his group? With Glen not being there that group became an "easy" group and the normalized scores reflected that relative to the other groups. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's flying efforts here but I think the ED should adjust the flying groups based on attendance if necessary in order to level the playing field for everyone.</p>
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<p>On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mark Hunt <<a href="mailto:flyintexan@att.net" target="_blank">flyintexan@att.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p>I too would like to see an article on this. No offense, but initially it is unclear to me how this would give any better exposure of pilots to the same judges/conditions than the current matrix system allows for. Would seeding not become even more critical in this scenario?</p>
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<p>Mark</p></div>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Anthony Romano <<a href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com" target="_blank">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a>> </span></p>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></p></div>
<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, August 3, 2009 11:56:34 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements</span></p>
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<p><br>Maybe Jerry could detail this in a Kfactor article. Perhaps could be used at locals to help with an oversized Masters group.<br> <br>Anthony<br> </p>
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<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:45:19 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?</p>
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<p>Jerry Budd had a good suggestion in running 4 mini-contests for 6 rounds where each pilot would fly against their group for 6 straight rounds and then the top 3 from each group would fly in the finals. I'm leaning toward this because the current format does not work. We also need to do something about FAI - because there isn't equal exposure there either.</p>
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<p>On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:41 PM, John Fuqua <<a href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com" target="_blank">johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<p>Every Nats I went to that had all events in 2 weeks ended up screwing<br>Pattern out of time or space. It never failed. I am against it even<br>thought I liked to go see other events. We cannot do a first rate job when<br>
we compete for runway space and days to fly.<br><br>I thought AMA wanted to reduce Nats costs. Moving them around does not do<br>that if you look at history and read up you will find a consistent comment<br>about reducing Nats costs. NPAC was fully funded by the pilots and it cost<br>
more than a typical Nats so factor that in.<br><br>No one has addressed the equal exposure to judges issues for the current<br>format yet and Mike's proposal does not correct that situation for Masters.<br>I had one person suggest to me that if we continue to use the Matrix system<br>
that we take the top 3 pilots from each "Group" to a 3 round finals. At<br>least then we have equal judging exposure and more or less equal weather<br>exposure per round.<br><br>John</p>
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<p><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a></p></div>
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<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Tony<br>Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:56 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br><br>That is a possibility also. AMA is thinking about returning the NATS to a 2<br>week all-events NATS like used to be done. If all events are together, HQ<br>
can put all costs into one effort. If they are all split up, Each group<br>would have more costs to deal with due to the fact that HQ can't send a<br>group of people to every site.<br><br><br><br>Tony Stillman, President<br>
<br>Radio South, Inc.<br><br>139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br><br>Brunswick, GA 31525<br><br>1-800-962-7802<br><br><a href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">www.radiosouthrc.com</a><br><br>________________________________<br>
<br>From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Tim Taylor<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:39 PM<br>To: General pattern discussion<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?<br><br><br><br>It was done, It was called NPAC<br><br><br><br>Tim<br><br>--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bill's Email <<a href="mailto:wemodels@cox.net" target="_blank">wemodels@cox.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br><br> From: Bill's Email <<a href="mailto:wemodels@cox.net" target="_blank">wemodels@cox.net</a>><br> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in<br>2010?<br> To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 2:06 PM<br><br> Why not allow the SIGS to do their own thing? IMAC and NSRCA do not<br>need to share a site. The LSF can find a site for the soaring NATS. Pylon<br>knows what venues work for them and so on. FF can do their own thing as<br>
well. Why tie soaring and FF together and so on??<br><br><br> Tony wrote:<br><br> Matt:<br> Yes, it is just difficult to tell if it is actually feasible. The<br>problem is that it requires a large site for Pattern/Pylon/IMAC and will<br>
require another large site for Soaring/Outdoor FF. It may be very difficult<br>to actually find places that can handle this group.<br><br><br><br><br><br> Tony Stillman, President<br><br> Radio South, Inc.<br>
<br>139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br><br>Brunswick, GA 31525<br><br> 1-800-962-7802</p></div></div>
<p><a href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">www.radiosouthrc.com</a> <<a href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">http://www.radiosouthrc.com/</a>></p>
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