<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Great idea Stu but you'd never make weight with 3 integral wings! (Sorry I couldn't resist).</DIV>
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<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 6/5/09, Stuart Chale <I><schale@optonline.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Stuart Chale <schale@optonline.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 8:10 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1486160090>Who mentioned a triplane :)<BR><BR>Joe Lachowski wrote:
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Speaking of Integral wings. I have 3 composite sets laying around if any one is interested.<g><BR> <BR>> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:40:21 -0700<BR>> From: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mups1953@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:mups1953@yahoo.com">mups1953@yahoo.com</A><BR>> To: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</A>; <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> All good points John but let me say this. It's nearly impossible to build a light
composite wing. If you make them too light they risk blowing apart in the air. i have seen some recent examples of Extreme Composite planes doing such. Composite ARF does a great job with there stuff today and seem to have a good compromise between strength and weight. There's a lot of guys flying them who made E. weight like Jason, Chad and Andrew.<BR>> Wist and Jaroslav Mach do the best job I've seen with composite wings making weight but they are a little hard to get. Also they are not as good a deal money wise as the Integral. My Integral has a foam wing and yes it seems silly but it did result in a pretty awesome plane and it's light. I offset the costs by selling the composite wings from the kit. Mike<BR>> <BR>> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, John Pavlick <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><jpavlick@idseng.com></A> wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > From: John Pavlick <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><jpavlick@idseng.com></A><BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>> > To: "General pattern discussion" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>> > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 8:18 AM<BR>> > Part of the reason why Pattern<BR>> > planes become "obsolete" is due to the fact that<BR>> > the airframe rules for ALL classes are the same. The higher<BR>> > classes schedules change and that requires design changes.<BR>> >
This is not a bad thing. It's part of any good<BR>> > competitive sport / hobby. Since the airframe rules<BR>> > apply to all classes, you only have one definition of a<BR>> > "legal" airplane which could be flown in any<BR>> > class. That would be like allowing a Grand National Stock<BR>> > car to run in the Street Stock class. How many people would<BR>> > be willing to try to enter the sport on a low budget with an<BR>> > old Chevelle? My guess is - none! <BR>> > <BR>> > I don't know how we could change this without<BR>> > causing more problems but it's something to think about.<BR>> > Personally I think a 90 size / 1.5 meter Sportsman<BR>> > class would do more to grow pattern than messing with the<BR>> > weight rules.<BR>> > <BR>> > Going back the the weight issue, I really<BR>> > don't think raising the weight limit will
attract more<BR>> > people to Pattern. I just don't see how. Who<BR>> > actually weighs airplanes at a local contest? If we were<BR>> > weighing planes at every contest I bet a lot of glow planes<BR>> > would be "illegal". Probably more than the number<BR>> > of electrics at any given contest. Why? Because most of the<BR>> > guys building electrics have learned to pay close attention<BR>> > to weight. That's because of the current rules.<BR>> > That's a good thing. <BR>> > <BR>> > Something else to think about: many of you guys are<BR>> > paying top dollar for high end airframes that are basically<BR>> > overweight to start with. Sure you can try to get things<BR>> > under control by using smaller airborne batteries, lighter<BR>> > servos, etc. but if I were you I'd be a bit upset<BR>> > if I paid for a "competition" airplane<BR>> >
that needed a lot of finessing to meet the weight<BR>> > requirements. <BR>> > <BR>> > Many of you guys like the Integral. This is a perfect<BR>> > example of what I'm talking about. Have you felt how<BR>> > heavy the wings are on some of those? For the money they<BR>> > charge, they should be able to build something lighter. You<BR>> > shouldn't have to custom cut a set of foam<BR>> > wings to replace the ones in your kit. That's just<BR>> > silly.<BR>> > <BR>> > It does NOT require "zen" building<BR>> > techniques to build an airplane that makes weight. OK, that<BR>> > doesn't hurt but all you need to do is pay close<BR>> > attention to what everything weighs as you build. EVERY<BR>> > time I see an airplane that's<BR>> > "overweight", I can pick out at least 3 things<BR>> > that are just plain absurd. I've only been doing
this<BR>> > for a few years. Some of you guys have been flying Pattern<BR>> > longer than I've been alive. If I can do it anyone<BR>> > can. My first 2-meter build (Black Magic V2.2 w/ OS 160)<BR>> > came out at 10lbs, 6.9 oz. I don't have the<BR>> > "zen" building technique down just yet so I'd<BR>> > have to say this should be possible for most people. I'm<BR>> > going to build an electric VF-3 this winter. I bet anyone<BR>> > that it will come in under weight. And I don't<BR>> > have a ton of money to throw at it. In fact I'll<BR>> > probably buy used stuff to save some money so I<BR>> > can buy good batteries. :)<BR>> > <BR>> > John Pavlick<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, mike mueller<BR>> > <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mups1953@yahoo.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:mups1953@yahoo.com"><mups1953@yahoo.com></A> wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > From: mike mueller <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mups1953@yahoo.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:mups1953@yahoo.com"><mups1953@yahoo.com></A><BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>> > To: "General pattern discussion"<BR>> > <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR>> > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 8:45 AM<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > "designs are obsolete in 2-3 years"<BR>> > Amen to that Ron. Pattern is like F1 racing we're<BR>> > competitive and always looking for better
and different.<BR>> > Truth be known I look forward to a new plane in the Spring<BR>> > that I planned and prepared for a year or so. It's part<BR>> > of what appeals me to pattern and I do this on a lower<BR>> > budget than many would deam possible. Trust me on this.<BR>> > It's all about will and determination and innovation to<BR>> > get what I want with as little as I have to work with. Money<BR>> > and building talents lacking I still put down a competitive<BR>> > piece each year. No sponsors either. Now that's actually<BR>> > pretty funny sorry.....<BR>> > Not saying a 5 year old design can't be competitive and<BR>> > that the pilot doesn't determine the outcome most of the<BR>> > time. I'm saying that I think designs for the truly<BR>> > competitive have a rather short lifespan and that's not<BR>> > going to change anytime soon.<BR>> > Also Ron there are a
lot of planes on the market that<BR>> > work well with IC. What about the Passport? Osmose?<BR>> > Integral? It's only been a year or so that the newer<BR>> > generation of planes have been introduced that are dedicated<BR>> > for E. use like the E Motion, Spark, Beryl E. Addiction E.<BR>> > and the Sickle. Before that all the designs were meant for<BR>> > IC and we adapted them to fit E.<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > Mike<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>> > <BR>> > _______________________________________________<BR>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> > <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> > <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>
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