<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">It penetrates the wind better. I wouldn't think of flying and of my sailplanes unballasted in the wind. They don't "fly" as good. <br><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div>&nbsp;</div><br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 6/4/09, Matthew Frederick <i>&lt;mjfrederick@cox.net&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Matthew Frederick &lt;mjfrederick@cox.net&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>To: "General pattern discussion" &lt;nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org&gt;<br>Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:49 AM<br><br><div id="yiv600423729"><div>A heavier plane doesn't necessarily fly</div><div>better in the wind. The design is a more</div><div>important factor in windy
 conditions than&nbsp;</div><div>anything else.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jun 3, 2009, at 8:36 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons &lt;<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign="top">Where it isn't fair is in takeoff weight, or even landing weight. A glow plane can put a 40 ounce tank in if they want, they could fly at 13 lbs if they want to help ballast the plane for heavy wind conditions. They could land at 12 lbs.&nbsp; Where does a 11 lb weight matter with that? Doesn't seem right to me. Does this mean I
 can add a fuel tank to my 10.5 lb Electric and ballast it where I want it???? It would help me tremendously at the nats in the wind!!! This argument is silly. There should be a takeoff weight rule. <br>If you fly glow, and your plane is right at 11 lbs, and you can't make the takeoff rule weight, then I guess you would be in the same boat as the E guys are now.. The only people that seem to have a problem with change, mostly seem to be the glow guys. <br>IMO, there is no advantage to either in flight. I world class flyer could beat us
 all with either. <br><br>For those that think the size would increase with a weight change, then go to a takeoff weight rule. I doubt it would happen then. <br><br><br><br><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" face="comic sans ms" size="3">Chris </font></em></strong></div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div>&nbsp;</div><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 6/3/09, J N Hiller <i>&lt;<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: J N Hiller &lt;<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>To: "General pattern discussion" &lt;<a rel="nofollow"
 ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br>Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:02 PM<br><br><div class="plainMail">OH not me. I would vote against a weight increase. I'm not a high tech guy<br>and fly pattern on the cheap. This is still mostly about flying and<br>considering my flying ability I don't feel I can buy
 enough points at any<br>price to justify it, besides I like to build. I fly a home made 1.20 size<br>72" wood airplane around 9 pounds with maybe an all up cost of about $500<br>(excellent pattern trainer in all classes).<br>I might be able to make weight with a 2 ci glow now. I just thought that if<br>the weight limit was removed we would see 12-14 pound airplanes with big gas<br>burners (IMAC crossover) and I would probably indulge, and yes a single 2m<br>wing will easily carry the weight of a 50 cc but what about a DA 100? Twins<br>run smooth.<br>The real cost is traveling in both time away from home and $$, even for us<br>non-competitive old guys, always has been, but I can't kick the habit.<br>Besides pattern fliers make good friends.<br>If I wasn't flying pattern I would be flying IMAC. Probably will anyway.<br>Jim<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"
 ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On Behalf Of Dave<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:24 PM<br>To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br>Jim,<br><br>Monoplanes are at 74" span now, and about 900 squares because that is where<br>the current schedules have pushed the designs to.&nbsp; The wings don't need to<br>be any bigger for the 11 lb weight limit.&nbsp; But at 74" and 900 squares, there<br>is plenty of room to grow the monoplane bigger if the weight limit is<br>increased.<br><br>The bottom line doesn't change - bigger bipe, bigger
 monoplane, bigger any<br>plane will increase costs.<br><br>If you think pattern needs more cost and complexity, whether it be
 biplanes<br>or monoplanes, submit a proposal.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:03 PM<br>To: General pattern discussion<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br>A monoplane will have higher wing loading. How high is too high?<br>Jim<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
 href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On Behalf Of Dave<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:57 AM<br>To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br>&lt;96 db, &lt;2M, &lt;11 lbs, and it is legal.&nbsp; Your challenge is to meet those<br>specs with whatever equipment you choose.<br><br>Raise any of those limits, and the cost and complexity of pattern goes up.<br>If you think what pattern needs is more cost and complexity, submit the<br>proposal.&nbsp; And as Duane notes, the new breed of monoplanes will obsolete<br>your DA-50 Bipe.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a
 rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:46 PM<br>To: General pattern discussion<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br>I was thinking pattern legal DA-50.<br>Jim<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"
 ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On Behalf Of Duane Beck<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:06 AM<br>To: General pattern discussion<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.mini-iac.com/"></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.mini-iac.com/">http://www.mini-iac.com/</a><br>DA-50's and larger biplanes very common.&nbsp; Have at it.&nbsp; :-)<br><br>Duane<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "J N Hiller" &lt;<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>&gt;<br>To: <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" target="_blank"
 href="/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>, "General pattern discussion"<br>&lt;<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2009 12:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br><br><br>Interesting discussion. I always felt the weight limit replaced the<br>displacement limit prevent the use of very large engines.<br><br>Remove it now and we will see DA-50 or larger biplanes. I have wanted to<br>build one for a
 long time.<br><br>Bring it on.<br><br>Jim Hiller<br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
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      </div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span><br><span><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><br><span><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><br><div class="plainMail">_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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