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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Old guard, lessee, do you think I'm a heretic?
LOL</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wait don't answer that....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope I agree with you about the wing loading. but
again the "problem" for a designer is trying to make a one-size-fits-all plane.
It really doesn't exist, although a few come REALLY close. Most designers design
primarily for FAI and then everyone else flies that plane because Joe superman
flies it. No matter how it flies. Finding a combination of design elements that
address it all is a daunting task.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>here's another one to chew on: fuselage loading?
With all the emphasis on KE flight and integrated rolls, how much is too much?
have we found the line yet? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wing thickness and drag also play into it heavily.
I have no doubt I have found the edge of the cliff with drag =) oddly
enough it doesn't come from the fuselage as much as the wing. So I have to agree
with you there, the wing is a big part of the whole equation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Talk about a delicate balancing act! Well, that's
what makes it fun for me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I've seen "too light"...for me. I've also seen too
heavy, but that side is well documented through the years. But one thing I'm
playing with is different wing designs and planforms. they make a HUGE
difference in the way a plane behaves. The actual airfoil shape itself is pretty
irrelavent...but the thickness, taper, TE thickness, area and placement on the
plane are a lot of fun to experiment with.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And the first thing I discovered doing that? If you
get too far in any direction, it'll REALLY suit one guy's flying style, and guys
at the other end of the spectrum will hate it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But the point is weight comes into play in KE as
well. And what's good for KE is not always good for a X-wind. Again there's got
to be a careful balance of everything. THAT is tricky.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-Mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:17
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mike,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Do I qualify as old
guard??? I think it was 1992 when Rick Allison said I was the old guy in
the top of the Masters class at the NATs because I was the only one who was
legal to drink (just barely at that).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is not about
weight….it is about design and wing loading (and fuse loading, with the huge
fuses of current day designs). I think the Vivat was (and is) a great
flyer in the wind…and it has about 1050 squ and 76” span (and builds at 10 –
10.25 lbs glow). Hebert designs are certainly not shy on wing, and also
fly well in the wind.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’ve yet to see “too
light”, but I’ve seen plenty of planes with too little wingloading (for a
particular design, or one built very lightly compared to the designer’s
intent). It was also in 1992 that I clipped the wingspan on my Dash Five
to increase the wingloading – at that time the “thinking” by some (me
included) was that somewhere around 100-110 squares of wing per pound was the
“sweet spot”. As the planes have gotten bigger (more aerodynamic
efficiency), horsepower has increased (easier to maintain speed on the tops of
maneuvers), and the schedules have changed (shifting to more complex rolling
and snapping maneuvers), the “sweet spot” for wing loading has effectively
increased – probably in the area of 85-95 squares per
lb.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think the reason
many people prefer a ballasted plane, is because they’ve not tried flying the
same plane with a smaller wing – I think what is actually preferred is the
higher wing loading. Given the relative ease of adding weight (compared
to cutting or changing the wing), adding weight is understandable for some in
some instances.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Mike Hester<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, June 04, 2009 11:13
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Careful, the old guard will call
you a heretic! LOL</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">FWIW I agree, totally. I have the
capability to build a 9 lb VF3 but I will tell you fast, I don't want it. I
flew the prototype at many weights and configurations from 9.5 lbs to 10.7 and
I will say without blinking I prefer it in the mid-moderately high 10s. I just
can't find any ill effects, except a few certain areas in the F patterns where
it digs slightly more. But add wind to the equation and it feels like a foamy
under 10 lbs. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Older designs and engines/power
systems, yeah lighter was ALWAYS better. Nowadays I'm not nearly as
convinced.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Of course this is personal
preference. I know for a fact a few people whom I have a <st1:place
w:st="on">LOT</st1:place> of respect for will call this "wrong thinking" or
maybe "ignorance". Nope, I'm not still searching for what I like, I found it.
And it weighs about 10.5 lbs =) But I won't try and convince anyone else of
it. It ALL comes down to personal preference. They aren't wrong
either.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And of course that brings up a
valid counter point for electrics.....ASSuming that a particular glow plane
did fly better with a dry weight of closer to 11 lbs, take off weight would be
in the 12+ range. With the electric version of the same plane limited to a
take off weight of 11 lbs, the comparable weight would be close to a 9.25 lb
glow plane. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So the question becomes, is that
good or bad?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-Mike</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:53 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Weight<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It
penetrates the wind better. I wouldn't think of flying and of my
sailplanes unballasted in the wind. They don't "fly" as good.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><EM><B><I><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000bf
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #0000bf; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Chris
</SPAN></FONT></I></B></EM><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Thu, 6/4/09, Matthew Frederick <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">mjfrederick@cox.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>From:
Matthew Frederick <<A
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">mjfrederick@cox.net</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>To: "<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:49 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=yiv600423729>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A heavier plane doesn't necessarily
fly<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">better in the wind. The design is a
more<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">important factor in windy conditions
than <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">anything else.<BR><BR>Sent from my
iPhone<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>On Jun
3, 2009, at 8:36 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <<A
href="/mc/compose?to=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com" target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Where it isn't
fair is in takeoff weight, or even landing weight. A glow
plane can put a 40 ounce tank in if they want, they could fly
at 13 lbs if they want to help ballast the plane for heavy
wind conditions. They could land at 12 lbs. Where does a
11 lb weight matter with that? Doesn't seem right to me. Does
this mean I can add a fuel tank to my 10.5 lb Electric and
ballast it where I want it???? It would help me tremendously
at the nats in the wind!!! This argument is silly. There
should be a takeoff weight rule. <BR>If you fly glow, and your
plane is right at 11 lbs, and you can't make the takeoff rule
weight, then I guess you would be in the same boat as the E
guys are now.. The only people that seem to have a problem
with change, mostly seem to be the glow guys. <BR>IMO, there
is no advantage to either in flight. I world class flyer could
beat us all with either. <BR><BR>For those that think the size
would increase with a weight change, then go to a takeoff
weight rule. I doubt it would happen then.
<BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><EM><B><I><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000bf size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #0000bf; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Chris
</SPAN></FONT></I></B></EM><FONT face=inherit><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR><BR>--- On
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Wed, 6/3/09, J N Hiller
<I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR>From: J N
Hiller <<A href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR>To: "<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>" <<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:02 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">OH not me. I
would vote against a weight increase. I'm not a high tech
guy<BR>and fly pattern on the cheap. This is still mostly
about flying and<BR>considering my flying ability I don't feel
I can buy enough points at any<BR>price to justify it, besides
I like to build. I fly a home made 1.20 size<BR>72" wood
airplane around 9 pounds with maybe an all up cost of about
$500<BR>(excellent pattern trainer in all classes).<BR>I might
be able to make weight with a 2 ci glow now. I just thought
that if<BR>the weight limit was removed we would see 12-14
pound airplanes with big gas<BR>burners (IMAC crossover) and I
would probably indulge, and yes a single 2m<BR>wing will
easily carry the weight of a 50 cc but what about a DA 100?
Twins<BR>run smooth.<BR>The real cost is traveling in both
time away from home and $$, even for us<BR>non-competitive old
guys, always has been, but I can't kick the habit.<BR>Besides
pattern fliers make good friends.<BR>If I wasn't flying
pattern I would be flying IMAC. Probably will
anyway.<BR>Jim<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:24
PM<BR>To: '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName>'<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR><BR>Jim,<BR><BR>Monoplanes are at
74" span now, and about 900 squares because that is
where<BR>the current schedules have pushed the designs
to. The wings don't need to<BR>be any bigger for the 11
lb weight limit. But at 74" and 900 squares, there<BR>is
plenty of room to grow the monoplane bigger if the weight
limit is<BR>increased.<BR><BR>The bottom line doesn't change -
bigger bipe, bigger monoplane, bigger any<BR>plane will
increase costs.<BR><BR>If you think pattern needs more cost
and complexity, whether it be biplanes<BR>or monoplanes,
submit a
proposal.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:03
PM<BR>To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight<BR><BR>A monoplane will have higher wing loading. How
high is too high?<BR>Jim<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:57
AM<BR>To: '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName>'<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Weight<BR><BR><96 db, <2M, <11
lbs, and it is legal. Your challenge is to meet
those<BR>specs with whatever equipment you
choose.<BR><BR>Raise any of those limits, and the cost and
complexity of pattern goes up.<BR>If you think what pattern
needs is more cost and complexity, submit
the<BR>proposal. And as Duane notes, the new breed of
monoplanes will obsolete<BR>your DA-50
Bipe.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:46
PM<BR>To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight<BR><BR>I was thinking pattern legal
DA-50.<BR>Jim<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of Duane Beck<BR>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:06
AM<BR>To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight<BR><BR><A href="http://www.mini-iac.com/"
target=_blank></A><A href="http://www.mini-iac.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/</A><BR>DA-50's and
larger biplanes very common. Have at it.
:-)<BR><BR>Duane<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:
"J N Hiller" <<A
href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>><BR>To:
<A href="/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com" target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</A>,
"<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName>"<BR><<A
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Wednesday, June 3, 2009 12:12:21 PM GMT -05:00
<st1:country-region
w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>/<st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>
Eastern<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight<BR><BR><BR>Interesting discussion. I always felt the
weight limit replaced the<BR>displacement limit prevent the
use of very large engines.<BR><BR>Remove it now and we will
see DA-50 or larger biplanes. I have wanted to<BR>build one
for a long time.<BR><BR>Bring it on.<BR><BR>Jim
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
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