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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>8.7 pounds with EVERYTHING in the plane except for the batteries
that power the motor. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Verne<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Pavlick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>So then electric planes will need to have the motor and
batteries removed when they're weighed?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Wed, 6/3/09, verne@twmi.rr.com <i><verne@twmi.rr.com></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: verne@twmi.rr.com <verne@twmi.rr.com><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 3:54 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mike, <br>
I mis-spoke and hopefully my correction made it on the list. I meant ELECTRIC
Black Magic. I know you and Dean have pulled it off in Zen-like fashion. I'm
not aware of any others, though I'm sure you'll correct me shortly. The point
is that most guys won't be able to pull it off or will have enough
self-doubts to even try. That leaves them with Sparks, Integrals, Prestiges,
Abbras and a few more that may or not be obtainable in a reasonable time
frame. And most of those won't make weight with a combination of
less-expensive (spelled heavier) motors and battery packs. Many that do would
become instantly obsolete if any significant repair such as torn-out landing
gear enters the equation. What I'm going to propose is to take the motor
batteries (not Rx battery) out of the equation and require a weight
significantly lighter than a glow plane (my preliminary research indicates
8.7 pounds which is 2-1/4 pounds lighter than a glow plane). This isn't
really my idea. I've just worked<br>
up what I believe to be a solution to comments I've been hearing on
the contest trail for a few years now. Everybody has the right to an opinion
on it and should make their feelings known to their respective AMA Contest
Board rep when the time comes.<br>
<br>
Verne<br>
<br>
<br>
---- Mike Hester <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kerlock@comcast.net">kerlock@comcast.net</a>>
wrote: <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Verne you're pretty much talking about just about everybody flying
pattern. <br>
> Even a lot of the sponsored guys don't get nearly as much help as one
would <br>
> think (you've been around Andrew and others so this is pretty common <br>
> knowledge). Very very few get a lot of support. Most of us pay through
the <br>
> nose to compete. Honestly one of the things I wanted to do was make it a
<br>
> little cheaper if you're willing to do the work on it, but even then
it's <br>
> not "cheap". if there's a real answer I don't know what it is.<br>
> <br>
> What I can answer is the Black Magic question, because you asked =) As
far <br>
> as I know, better than 90-95% of them made weight right off the table.
The <br>
> ones who didn't, you can usually find a common denominator somewhere
that <br>
> had they done it different, they wouldn't have been overweight. At least
the <br>
> few I am aware of. But almost all of them that I am aware of that are
flying <br>
> made it the first time. Some are even lighter than I have yet achieved.
I <br>
> know of a few exceptions but don't know of any that didn't make it <br>
> eventually after some tweaking. If you follow the directions to the
letter <br>
> and never get complacent, you'll make it. Usually with room to spare. In
<br>
> almost every case the extra weight was picked up on the finish/paint, or
in <br>
> the selection and methods of sheeting. I don't know personally of anyone
who <br>
> didn't make it easily on the second attept.<br>
> <br>
> So, it can be done. But I won't kid you, it's a lot of work. The reward
IMHO <br>
> is the durability. I am still amazed at how much these things can take <br>
> before they break! (I thought Archie's was toast for sure last year at <br>
> Cincy!)<br>
> <br>
> LOL Zen building....ok, I won't argue that, me and Dean do have that <br>
> mindset. We actually enjoy the process. It's not work (unless it isn't <br>
> mine). We know we're the minority as far as that goes. Most people just
want <br>
> to fly, NOW. But I enjoy the shop stuff as much as the flying.<br>
> <br>
> I really don't know of many planes that "can't" make weight
under the <br>
> current rules. Some are just easier than others. But just for the
record, <br>
> the Black Magics have a pretty good track record overall, thus far. But
they <br>
> aren't for everyone. There are plenty of composite planes that can
easily <br>
> make weight. Although you sort of get what you get, and hope it's light <br>
> enough in almost all cases. The only way to totally avoid that is to do
it <br>
> all yourself. And although there are a suprising number of people who
will, <br>
> a lot can't, or won't.<br>
> <br>
> FWIW the future is looking better than ever, across the board. Equipment
is <br>
> better and more reliable, newer airframes are SOLID and the quality is <br>
> getting better, the only thing not getting better is the price tag.<br>
> <br>
> -Mike<br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</a>><br>
> To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:45 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > Arch,<br>
> > How many Black Magics are out there that made weight by someone who
built <br>
> > one the first time, or even the second? I know Mike and Dean can do
it, <br>
> > that's what I meant by the "building skills of Zen". What
I'm talking <br>
> > about and who I'm listening to are the totally unsponsored guys who
can't <br>
> > just pick up the phone and get something right now because of their
<br>
> > reputation and also have to pay full price for everything. This
isn't a <br>
> > shot at anyone who has any level of sponsorship. I fall into that
category <br>
> > myself. I'm just hearing a lot of frustration on the contest trail
and <br>
> > have been for a couple of years.<br>
> ><br>
> > Verne<br>
> ><br>
> > ---- Archie Stafford <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=astafford@swtexas.net">astafford@swtexas.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> >> I agree with Jon and Dave. Getting rid of the weight
limit or even <br>
> >> changing<br>
> >> it is a bad idea. The price of batteries keeps
dropping. PATTERN IS <br>
> >> NEVER<br>
> >> GOING TO BE CHEAP, NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE WANT IT TO BE.
It is always <br>
> >> going<br>
> >> to be expensive to go to contests, so saving 100-200 on a set
of <br>
> >> batteries<br>
> >> is offset by the other costs associated with it. There
are airframes out<br>
> >> there that you could use heavy packs and still be under
weight. Dave<br>
> >> Lockhart is under 10lbs flying electric, so he could definitely
go with<br>
> >> significantly heavier batteries. I know that there is a
set of Black <br>
> >> Magics<br>
> >> that are easily under using about the heaviest electric setup
known now <br>
> >> and<br>
> >> it is still legal. There are options out there without
changing the <br>
> >> rules.<br>
> >> It wasn't that many years ago people swore you couldn't build
the large 2<br>
> >> meter stuff under 11 lbs, now there are full built up balsa
kits coming <br>
> >> in<br>
> >> at 9.5lbs. It can be done even with the heavier electric
stuff.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Arch<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> From: <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> [mailto:<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Jon Lowe<br>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:19 PM<br>
> >> To: <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> >><br>
> >> Amen. The theory was, when they went to 2 meters,
unlimited engines<br>
> >> and 11 lbs that things would get cheaper because they could use
larger,<br>
> >> less finicky engines than the .61's at the time. Yeah,
right. My YS<br>
> >> is fuel injected, supercharged, CDI, and running on 30%.
The planes<br>
> >> will change to fit ANY new rules,and cost will likely rise
along with<br>
> >> it.<br>
> >><br>
> >> My attitude is that both fuel and electric airplanes are
weighed<br>
> >> without fuel. My fuel weighs a lot, electric fuel doesn't
weigh<br>
> >> anything. Electrics just have a heavy fuel
tank. They are at a<br>
> >> definite advantage in many cases because they never weigh more
than 11<br>
> >> lbs in flight, while a fuel airplane often does.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dave is right, the cost curve is starting to favor electrics,
assuming<br>
> >> you have no current investment in either technology. The
Zippy packs<br>
> >> will get better and better, and the cost of electric continues
to come<br>
> >> down. Go to hobbycity.com and look around at their
motors, speed<br>
> >> controllers, batteries and chargers if you don't believe
me. The only<br>
> >> advantage for me right now with YS's other than the fact I have<br>
> >> invested in them, is that I get get two practice sequences per
flight.<br>
> >> Plus, they don't try to burn my house down. ;)<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jon Lowe<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> From: Dave <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>
> >> To: 'General pattern discussion' <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> >> Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:57 pm<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> <96 db, <2M, <11 lbs, and it is legal. Your
challenge is to meet those<br>
> >> specs with whatever equipment you choose.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Raise any of those limits, and the cost and complexity of
pattern goes<br>
> >> up.<br>
> >> If you think what pattern needs is more cost and complexity,
submit the<br>
> >> proposal. And as Duane notes, the new breed of monoplanes
will obsolete<br>
> >> your DA-50 Bipe.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Regards,<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dave<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> From: <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> [mailto:<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of J N<br>
> >> Hiller<br>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:46 PM<br>
> >> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> >><br>
> >> I was thinking pattern legal DA-50.<br>
> >> Jim<br>
> >><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> From: <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> [mailto:<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Duane Beck<br>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:06 AM<br>
> >> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="http://www.mini-iac.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mini-iac.com/</a><br>
> >> DA-50's and larger biplanes very common. Have at
it. :-)<br>
> >><br>
> >> Duane<br>
> >><br>
> >> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> >> From: "J N Hiller" <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
> >> To: <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>,
"General pattern discussion"<br>
> >> <<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2009 12:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Interesting discussion. I always felt the weight limit replaced
the<br>
> >> displacement limit prevent the use of very large engines.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Remove it now and we will see DA-50 or larger biplanes. I have
wanted to<br>
> >> build one for a long time.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Bring it on.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jim Hiller<br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a
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> >> <a
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> >><br>
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> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a
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> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a
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> > _______________________________________________<br>
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