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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For those of us who were around at the
time of that rule change and remember Ron Chidgey who was the CIAM F3A Chairman
may also remember the rule about 2 stoke .60s and 4 stroke 1.20s.
The solution Ron pushed that was adopted was to limit airplane size and weight
but eliminate engine size as a criteria. This brought us 1.40, 2
and 4 stroke engines and now electrics. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>By the way we would need a rule change for
turbo props (LOL!!!)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Koenig, Tom<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 03, 2009
5:04 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>Hi
all and Derek,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>Speaking
only for myself (in no way for the country) but I think the rest of the world will
shout you down? The <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region></st1:place>
is merely one country, one vote.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>I
would like to mention something I have thus far not read in this discussion.
Let’s consider that in many countries the cars are (much) smaller, (most)
flying fields are extremely noise conscious and; houses/flats are in general
smaller.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>I
seem to remember the two meter rule having something to do with the size of a
door and being able to manhandle a 2m model through such door?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>Personally,
I am with Dave L, the FAI rules should not be messed with.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>I
can’t wait until someone does a (competitive) 2 m, 5 kg turbo prop??!!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>Best
regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Derek Koopowitz<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:53
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Verne,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>When I was at the CIAM meeting in March one of the
proposals which was passed by the helicopter guys (F3C) was to modify the
weight limit for their helicopters effective 1/1/2010. Here is the new
wording:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>a) WEIGHT: The weight of the model aircraft (<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>with </span></b>fuel <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>or </span></b>batteries)
must not exceed <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>6.5 </span></b>kg.</span></font><span
lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face=Arial><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Unanimously approved by the Plenary Meeting. Effective 01/01/10.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm going to feel out the rest of the F3A
sub-committee members to see if there is interest in raising the F3A weight
limit to 5.5kg. What does everyone think about this?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:12.0pt'>-Derek<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:51 AM, <<a
href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bill,<br>
I've been working up an AMA rules proposal to address that very issue.
Unfortunately, it won't be up for vote by the contest board anytime soon. In
the meantime, there's one area you didn't mention in the glow to electric
comparison and that's that an electric plane doesn't need as much internal
reinforcement because there's virtually no vibrational effects to contend with
that you do with glow. That equates to lighter airframes being acceptable as
well as small, light, lipo packs to power the Rx and servos. An 8 minute
e-flight typically uses about 50 mah. The same flight in glow is typically 200+
mah. All that aside, most electric pilots will tell you that making weight in
electric is generally a pretty expensive proposition with a limited number of 2
meter planes available that are usually vacuum-bagged composite affairs. In
addition, your best chances for making weight will also necessitate the
lightest and generally most expensive motors and batteries. There are exceptio<br>
ns, and I'm sure we're about to hear about most of them, but I'll be able
to point to just as many examples of guys that fly overweight at local contests
where they know they won't be weighed and the only thing they're really guilty
of is not spending the extra money that the lightest batteries and motors cost.
In every other way, the planes they're flying are the same as the ones they're
competing against. The proposal I'm working on is not self-serving because my
planes make weight, but getting there is both too expensive and unreasonable,
in my opinion. My proposal won't be to allow electric planes to weigh more,
it'll require that they weigh less, but without the "fuel". The
proposal will take into account that electric motors are inherently lighter than
their glow counterparts as well as the reduced structural requirements. It will
limit the mah of permissible packs to control that end of the equation and
there's already a voltage limit on the books which is fine as it<br>
stands. I'm currently doing survey work at the contests I go to to see
where everybody is at weight-wise and will post my proposal on this list soon.
After that, it's up to all concerned to voice their opinions to their
respective Contest Board reps.<br>
<br>
Verne Koester<br>
AMA District 7<br>
Contest Board<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:12.0pt'>---- Bill's Email <<a href="mailto:wemodels@cox.net">wemodels@cox.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> I am certain this has been beaten to death while I was off doing
other<br>
> things, but can anyone explain this:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Rule 4.3: Weight and Size. No model may weigh more than five (5)<br>
> kilograms (11 pounds) gross, but excluding fuel, ready for takeoff.<br>
> Electric models are weighed with batteries.<br>
><br>
> Why can't an electric "deduct" the equivalent of 16 ounces of
fuel?? Is<br>
> a plane without fuel rally "ready for takeoff"??<br>
><br>
> I know it is likely a direct copy of the FAI rule, but it makes no<br>
> logical sense. IC powered planes are weighed without fuel and can weigh<br>
> right at 11 pounds. Add fuel and it could add another 10 to 12 ounces of<br>
> weight. That's OK. But if an electric with batteries weight<br>
> 11.0000000000000001 pounds it is overweight by the rules.<br>
><br>
> Put another way, what does a YS and full fuel weigh compared to a<br>
> motor+ESC+batteries?<br>
><br>
> Hacker C50 14XL = 18.2 ounces<br>
> Hacker Spin 99 ESC = 3.7 ounces<br>
> 10S packs = +/- 43 to 46 ounces<br>
><br>
> Weight w/o batteries = 21.9<br>
> AUW w/batteries = 66.9 ounces<br>
><br>
> YS 1.70 = 33.6 ounces (955 grams)<br>
> AUW with tank and fuel = 45 ounces +/-<br>
><br>
> So I can see an argument that the electrics have a weight advantage<br>
> when it comes to just the motor and ESC. But with "fuel"
electric is at<br>
> a 20 ounce disadvantage.<br>
><br>
> So if I build a plane for electric I need to build it 20 plus ounces<br>
> lighter than if I was going to put a nitro motor in it. How does that<br>
> make sense. I know I am missing something important here, so educate me.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
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